Anonymity in posting

I am pleased that some comments made towards Lise were removed,as I did not like them

How come I keep missing the removed remarks?

Carol wrote:

How come I keep missing the removed remarks?

Hi Carol,

I think it must be because the person who is posting as Sara decided the words were not nice or preceptual, and demonstrated a lack of compassion and wisdom on his part, and he removed them during the two-hour window when posts can be edited. I'm being facetious - there are of course no rules about anyone needing to follow the OBC's version of "right speech" here. It is interesting that something about this forum does challenge their ability to keep up appearances of right speech, though. Perhaps it is a very superficial acquisition on their part, and hard to sustain outside the bubble of the monastery.

Since the person posting as Sara (who is clearly not the original Sara H who opened the account and made some posts a few months ago), admires honesty, perhaps it would have been more honest of him to leave the comments there

Michael, thank you.

I must have missed something here. So Sara H are two different people - and it is a he, not a she? and posts have been deleted? a mystery.....an enigma......

Right on both counts.

I think the post deletion was done by "Sara H" during the editing window.

Lise wrote:

Carol wrote:

How come I keep missing the removed remarks?

Hi Carol,

I think it must be because the person who is posting as Sara decided the words were not nice or preceptual, and demonstrated a lack of compassion and wisdom on his part, and he removed them during the two-hour window when posts can be edited. I'm being facetious - there are of course no rules about anyone needing to follow the OBC's version of "right speech" here. It is interesting that something about this forum does challenge their ability to keep up appearances of right speech, though. Perhaps it is a very superficial acquisition on their part, and hard to sustain outside the bubble of the monastery.

Since the person posting as Sara (who is clearly not the original Sara H who opened the account and made some posts a few months ago), admires honesty, perhaps it would have been more honest of him to leave the comments there

Michael, thank you.

Excuse, me.

Yes, I am (me).

Thank you very much.

The reason for two accounts actually had to do with a mistake.

When I originally signed up a long time ago, I created an account, this one I think. Then, I never posted. later, (I think like a year) when I did post, I had either entirely forgotten that I had the other account, and so created the new one.

Still later, I forgot the password and username to the second one, and so found searching in my old emails a password and username for the first one, and thinking it was the second one logged in...

Well, so I'm just using this one now.

I can't really keep track of both, but they are one and the same person.

And I'm a she, thank you. I'm not Rev. Master Haryo, as you've implied elsewhere. Though I do talk to him and hold him in high esteem. I don't post comments for him, (or anyone else) nor would he ask me too.

I deleted the comments because I was making a joke, but I figured since people here are so serious, a bit of humor might be taken the wrong way.
And decided to pull it.

Though I appreciate the complement with being compared to Rev. Master Haryo.
That's a high complement indeed.

Thank you,

Sara

Sara H wrote:

I deleted the comments because I was making a
joke, but I figured since people here are so serious, a bit of humor
might be taken the wrong way.
And decided to pull it.

No, no, you must be thinking of Bright Moon - we're the other ones.

Someone made quite a few posts under the account "Sara H", two of which generated warnings for the poster, and the last of which was removed and earned the poster a suspension for a couple of months. That person's style of writing and form of expression don't in any way match what is being posted now under this same account. Much of it looks like Shasta-speak that could be copied from any transcription of a dharma talk, or more likely, from an email exchange with a monk. If the latter is true, I wonder whether that person knows his words are posted here, without attribution.

Another possibility is that you are a current monk whose superiors in the dharma have instructed him not to spend so much time on the Internet, and in particular, not to post on this forum. Am I getting warmer

Whoever you are, I don't think it is the same lad we initially met as "Sara H". But as Kennett claimed to have said, I could be wrong.

Lise wrote:

Sara H wrote:

I deleted the comments because I was making a
joke, but I figured since people here are so serious, a bit of humor
might be taken the wrong way.
And decided to pull it.

No, no, you must be thinking of Bright Moon - we're the other ones.

Someone made quite a few posts under the account "Sara H", two of which generated warnings for the poster, and the last of which was removed and earned the poster a suspension for a couple of months. That person's style of writing and form of expression don't in any way match what is being posted now under this same account. Much of it looks like Shasta-speak that could be copied from any transcription of a dharma talk, or more likely, from an email exchange with a monk. If the latter is true, I wonder whether that person knows his words are posted here, without attribution.

Another possibility is that you are a current monk whose superiors in the dharma have instructed him not to spend so much time on the Internet, and in particular, not to post on this forum. Am I getting warmer

Whoever you are, I don't think it is the same lad we initially met as "Sara H". But as Kennett claimed to have said, I could be wrong.

Nope.
That was me.

Same person.

I've been trying to sit with some things and be a little less "fierce."

There's a line from Shakespeare that I think accurately describes me for most of my life. "Though she be but little, she is fierce!"

Some things have come up in sitting that have calmed that fire down quite a bit.

It's nice to know it's noticeable though.
It's kindof interesting to hear it being described as me being a different person.

Thank you.

Sara

The comments aimed at Lise were not funny nor intended as being funny,They were intimate sexual comments implying intimate sexual practices involving Lise,I found them very offensive, very embarressed and hurt that Lise may read them.
It reminded me of someone I know who starts his nastiness by saying
I hope this does not sound horrible but....
or I hope this does not offend you but...
there is a whole list
There is something very off center with the comments

The prerequisite for something to seem funny, is first, one must have a sense of humor...

Michael, thank you for your support. If you see similar postings appear, please don't let it disturb you. I have a slight advantage here in that I met _________ (Sara H) on different occasions at the Abbey, years ago, and once I recognised his presence here, I knew what to expect. It sounds like he hasn't changed much, nor has his contact with Haryo (and aping of his comments) had much effect. Sad.

Edited by Lise: I'm in the process of removing Sara H's former name, in case there is a threat to personal safety, but further discussion is forthcoming in regard to the circumstances under which posters here can expect to rely on anonymity, and the point at which it is no longer their "right".

Hey Lise

I am surprised that you would out [Admin delete] when it's obvious that he wished to be anonymous via the name & sex change.

It will put a serious chill on any other active OBCer's considering on posting here anonymously who worry about being likewise exposed.

Hey Sara
There used to be more anonymous posters on the OBCC than there is now. A number of folks eventually decided to stand more openly behind their postings with a recognizable name. Although I do think that anonymity is your right, can I ask why you've chosen this anonymity?



H

Maybe I'm in the wrong, Howard, I don't know, but in some circumstances I think it's appropriate. Using the forum to post foul stuff and then laugh about it doesn't sit well with me. Perhaps I'll feel differently in the morning, but tonight I'm a bit fed up.

I understand your point about a possible chilling effect, but in truth, very few current sangha members post here. People mostly use this forum after they've left, not before. And once I stopped posting the second-hand dirt some of the Mt. Shasta lot were continually dishing to me about Abbey doings, they must have lost interest in the forum, at least, I never hear from them now. Anyway, I don't take this issue lightly - I will think about what you've said.

This is a formal complaint.
Lise's actions are a serious violation of privacy, and discriminatory.

I am formally requesting other admin intervention.

Outing someone who is genderqueer's old name and gender, is not only extremely rude and derogatory, but completely off topic and a violation of forum rules against making personal attacks as well.

Using a genderqueer person's former name, or referring to them with different pronouns is a personal attack.

I expected better here.

If you want to disagree with someone, fine, but being that rude is completely out of line.

I am formally requesting that the posts in question be removed, and I am also going to post some guidelines that I would suggest everyone here read, regarding how to be respectful to a transgender person.

It's basic respect and courtesy.

http://www.wikihow.com/Respect-a-Transgender-Person

Please refrain from making such remarks in the future.

You can disagree without resorting to hate speech or hate crimes.

I agree with Sara. If someone prefers to stay anonymous, their preference should be respected. Same for gender issues. It's personal to the one making the choice and his/her choice should be respected.

That said, Lise is concerned about some other sort of interference going on with this forum. If it concerns Lise, it concerns me too. What's going on?

In all the excitement, no one has responded to my post on children. I wish someone would.

Carol, there is no interference.

It's all in her head.

I am a layperson.

She's got it in her head that first, I was Rev. Master Haryo, then that I might be another monk, and then, when she realized I was neither, she's outing me when I'm a transgender person which is discriminatory hate speech and putting my physical safety at risk?

Ive been assaulted in real life for being transgender.

People have been beaten to death and murdered after they were outed.
This is a serious issue, this puts my safety at risk. These posts need to be removed.

This is also, exactly the kind of anti-LGBT bullying which causes so many LGBT teens to commit suicide.

This is not ok.

This is a second formal request.

I'm asking that all posts using my former name be removed.

This outing someone like that is anti-LGBT/anti-gay bullying.

It's hate speech,

And it puts my physical safety at risk.

People have been raped, assaulted and murdered after they were outed online.
That's not a joke. It's not an exaggeration. I know people personally that it's happened to.

Bullying someone for their sexual orientation to "teach them a lesson"
or putting their physical safety at risk is not ok under any
circumstances.

If anyone on here has any sense of decency at all, or any sense of doing as little harm as possible, please remove those posts.

It puts my real life safety at risk.



Sara

Could somebody do Sara a favor and comply with her request ?

This Forum is starting to sound like it has the same faults that
were attributed to the OBC mindset and this isn`t the only
example. Yes, the OBC has it`s faults but, they don`t need
perpetuating here...surely ?

I will have more to say later, as I have to be off to work soon and will likely not be able to respond as often as I'd like during the rest of today.

First - I've no intention to discriminate against anyone, transgender or otherwise. Sara, because I saw you at Shasta and observed a number of things about your behaviour, demeanor, and overall approach to interacting with people, I had reason to doubt that your claim to be transgender was more than another dodge of some kind, an attempt at scamming. Based on the discussion above I'll assume you are sincere in wishing to be addressed as female and I will comply with your wishes. I would not intentionally insult or offend someone who has taken on a new gender identity and is disturbed by other pronouns. But if you play people for the fool here, it won't work out well for you. Based on the biographical details you've provided, you've already outed yourself some time ago. Anyone who was active in the lay sangha during the recent past will know who you are, no matter what name you use.

One other thing, for now - being accused of hate speech, anti-gay slurs, etc. - none of that has an effect on me, nor will it, if your activities here justify admin action of any kind. You have no elevated set of privileges or rights simply by claiming to be part of a disadvantaged group, and no amount of tantrum-ing will get you any.

This is an interesting mix of things.

First, I post semi-anonymously. I do so because I wanted to write without singling out specific OBC people for what would appear to be personal criticism rather than the institutional criticism I wanted to write. So its hard for me to throw rocks at people who choose for whatever reason not to disclose information like location or complete names. The internet is sometimes devastating to privacy, and remembers mostly forever -- not generally wholesome attributes for free and open conversation.

Second, I find it quite doubtful Lise would do anything to intentionally harm someone. I missed the posting that was withdrawn. It sounds as if its contents were crude, with a later attempt to claim the crudity was "just a joke." Surely Sara would object if someone crudely spoke to her, and then, instead of apologizing, only claimed it a joke, That's an old human trick of self-rationalization.

Though I've sometimes found Lise to be more on the nanny side than I am, she has been tolerant and consistent about reasonable speech -- much better than some Buddhists I know who go on and on about "right speech" or who fail to speak plainly or honestly -- even when the result is harm to others. I probably speak more directly than some others here; in the past that occasionally seemed to bother some.

Third, it seems that continuing anonymity carries a concomitant burden of behaving rationally and with integrity. Anonymity can be a mask for evil and harm. if you want to be anonymous, behave reasonably well.

Fourth, let Sara be Sara, but also insist on good behavior. I wouldn't have made the public connection about sexual orientation for others.

Hey Sara

Thanks for explaining the "N" thing. I just don't think that anyones sexual choices, that doesn't hurt others, is any of my business. My focus tends to stay more with how any of us can let go of our grasp of identity, sexual or otherwise.

Speaking of humour, when I complained about your "outing" I thought (due to the classically male orgasmic orientation of your sexual posting) that I was defending someone who was just disguising their identity with a female name. My defence was for the right of your anonymity without knowing anything of your history. Many OBCC folks who have dealt with there own experiences of OBC shunnings tend to forgo anonymity for its an anonymity that is part of the experience enforced upon one with shunning. I thought it was you right to choose it or not.

But back to your postings...

This is such a limited medium for speaking of what we care about. So many spaces to get coloured with our history rather than what is.

I doubt any of this present hurt would have occurred with face to face communications where there are so many more ques for determining anothers true intention. It's tough to give folks the benefit of the doubt when that doubt has been what we've had to challenge before.

Anyway...

I believe you've suggested that OBCC members should let go of the past,

that what has hurt them in the past has now been corrected and

that they are not really valid stakeholders in the process of trying to effect changes in hurtful behaviours.


Just how would you feel if the OBCC had said that of your present posting situation?.

I think empathy, sympathy, tenderness, etc. are best demonstrated with a sincere widening of a heart that doesn't reserve such graces for one being over another. Admittedly a tall order but in looking around, there doesn't seem to be any better use of our time.



Cheers

H

(Howard, I'll probably respond to you in a bit.)

Lise, do I have the right to criticize your actions as well?

Or is it just one way?

Postings that conform to the forum rules aren't a problem, and you're assumed to have agreed to all forum rules if you want to participate here.

The way you've phrased your question seems odd to me though. Two days ago - three? - you were on a different track entirely, as far as advocating your version of preceptual speech.

If criticising my actions will help you feel good for a little bit, but then make you feel crummy inside, as you've told us will happen, should I encourage you to go ahead, or should I recommend that you sit with it a bit longer, and see if you can let go of the negative energy rather than giving in to it?

What would the monks advise you to do?

Let me ask you something Lise.

Does this apply to you as well?

Quote :

6. Be courteous. The following are not allowed: personal
insults/name-calling, racism, swearing, gratuitously offensive material,
personal attacks, and trolling (making controversial posts purely to
stir up an adverse reaction).

Or this:

Quote :

7. You are welcome to challenge others' points of view and opinions,
but do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Keep in mind that others have
the right to disagree with you.

Quote :

18. By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any
messages that are defamatory, libelous, obscene, vulgar,
sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise in violation of
any laws.

I think most people would consider some of the things you've posted directed at me to be personal attacks.
Or attempts to defame me.
Posting libelous stuff like some of the things you've been saying is against forum rules and applicable laws as well.
Do you think that outing a Transgender persons old name is being thoughtful or respectful?

You didn't seem very thoughtful of my feelings, or respectful of me.

Some of the posts you've made have been defaming to me, and defaming to others.

And I think that most people would say that there's been plenty of hate posted.

When exactly do you decide to enforce these rules?
And do they apply to you?
Or only selectively to others when you choose, or when they disagree with you, or make a point you don't like?

You know, in the real world. We call that a conflict of interest.

It means that someone is not ethically capable of enforcing the rules with regards to their own conduct or interests, because they have an inherent heavy bias and conflict of interest.

I mean simply put Lise, it seems like you're enforcing these rules one way, and selectively.

Every time you break them in your own favor, (or of others you favor) you rationalize such action as necessary, or minimize it as being an outlier occurrence.

Every time someone challenges your own views, (or the views of someone you agree with) you get much more strict
with the person you don't like in how you enforce the rules and even actively break them yourself, or completely disregard them.

So, let me ask you something.

Are you actually interested in serious conversation?

Or is this just a clique?

At times I may engage in these kind of conversations if I think there may be something new for some of us to read and think about, but if it looks to be a re-hash of territory covered many times before, by me or others, I'm okay with taking a pass on it. Or if I feel the person I'm speaking with has certain walls and barriers, and we're both just shouting at the barriers, I'll pass on that too. It doesn't help anybody.

That's how I feel about this situation. I'll take a pass for now, but maybe have another look later.

I think you'll be in better position to have a reasoned conversation when you can accept that most of us haven't the faintest idea about all these transgender norms, rules, mores, requirements, verbal etiquette, do's and don'ts, sensitivities and the like, that you insist we have to know about, instantly, as if this knowledge is somehow mainstream and we all grew up with it, or live with it every day. Apparently if we aren't up to speed on what you demand from us, you say that we "hate". We don't. There's no hatred here that I can see.

Take care, Sara.

Lise

Sara wrote concerning Lise:

Quote :

Some of the posts you've made have been defaming to me, and defaming to others.

And I think that most people would say that there's been plenty of hate posted

I don't see any of this from Lise. She was trying to piece together a puzzle as to why your postings suddenly changed gender and tone. She didn't, nor would I, assume as a first possibility that the same person had changed gender. Rather it would look like someone had hijacked an account -- probably with mischief in mind. That's a rational, logical concern for an administrator.

No one here has insulted you about your change, That's in your head, not in anything objective I've seen here. I don't think people here care one way or another. I certainly don't.

Your words to Lise seem loaded with the sarcasm and peevishness you have been quick to accuse others of. That's not surprising either -- just ordinary human nature. Where's the right speech you were spouting about earlier? Read what the Buddha said right speech was if you want to preach that as a model.

I think this discussion should end. Who said what to whom and who insulted or didn't insult whom can go on forever and isn't a fruitful topic for conversation in this setting.

Carol, I think that your suggestion is very wise.

I've come in late to this discussion, missed several deleted comments, and am still a little confused about the details.

What seems increasingly clear to me is that this might be a good time to give ourselves a big hug--and a deep bow of mutual respect.

My best regards to everyone, in conversation, on this thread,
Kozan

I was going to have a little `mischief moment` and say that
"isn`t it time to move on" is only allowed for the OBCC and not
the OBC !
Unfortunately Kozan`s `Metta` moment came up and trumped
mine.
Darned Boddhisatvas.......

[admin hat on]
Just a few thoughts about editing/deleting content after posting...

We've experienced before that changing or removing content can cause confusion. Typically what happens is people read and reply to something and then their response is rendered inaccurate because it's no longer clear what they are responding to. There was a period of very high activity on the forum where this became a big enough problem that the admins decided to disable the editing/deleting function. That solved the continuity problem, but it was also rigid and inconvenient. Eventually the option to edit/delete was re-enabled, but I believe we should still make an effort to get it right the first time so that others don't read and respond to our unfinished words. By the way, if you make a point of clicking the quote button the content you're replying to will be included and that will eliminate any doubt as to what you're replying to.

The web interface for creating posts is very limited. When I'm creating a post that needs time and revision I turn to my word processor. It is a much friendlier environment and eliminates the risk of losing information which occasionally happens in the web UI. It also gives me time to run the message through my "is this what I really mean to say and am I willing for anyone and everyone on the web to read it" filter. Or to put it more simply does it meet my criteria to refrain from harm.
[admin hat off]