Additional info on Michael Little CONTINUED

First topic message reminder :

Since Lise unaccountably locked the topic, and, disturbingly, did so precisely when Nicky posted a dissenting posting, taking the discussion in a new direction, I am now starting a continuation of it.

I refrained from posting on this thread, since I found the discussion seriously and disturbingly off kilter.
I find that Michael - Eko - Little is being given a good deal of the benefit of the doubt in this discussion. Towards the end of the thread, in Howard's posting, ff, he was given much compassion and a very explicit support, without condemnation of his - alleged - actions. In the discussion on the thread, the women, the victims of his extremely hurtful, abhorrent actions were repeatedly questioned, subjected to scrutiny, and treated with patent disrespect. In Howard's benediction they are oddly omitted as victims of Little's actions:

"Blessings for Mr.Little, Blessings for his former disciples and
Blessings for the Shasta Sangha at large."

Howard also wrote:
Sorrowful [thread] for Mr Little to have the details of his koan so publicly splashed about.

Please! Nobody 'publicly splashed about' the details of Mr Little's koan. Meian, very properly and responsibly, informed her flock of Little's execrable actions. Actually, she could not have acted otherwise. This being discussed on the public forum such as this, is a consequence of Little's actions. To expend much compassion towards him in this regard, is out of place. To tell the truth, it makes me quite sick.

Gentlemen, please understand that what the women concerned were subjected to is a terrible experience.

Ladies, if you can't see it, and feel for and stand by your sisters, I am utterly dismayed.

It is indeed true that Little's alleged actions have not been proven in the court of law, nor are they ever likely to be. However, since several claimants have come forward; since it is extremely unlikely that Meian would have acted the way she did, unless she had solid grounds for her conclusions; and since on this forum we have read enough troubling testimony about Little from Laura, an eminently trustworthy source of great integrity - and, of course, Diana, with authenticity that does not leave much open to doubt; because of all this, the benefit of the doubt should definitely go to the victims.

I hope to God that none of the victims have read certain comments in this (now locked) thread. I can't imagine that they would not feel violated anew by some of them.

Please face the gravity of Little's misconduct, and harm it has caused.

And Lise, in future please give sufficient aviso when you intend to lock a thread.

Ol'ga

Henry
You have experienced through your work unpleasant aspects of family care, so I assume this means you see things when they have gone wrong.I have seen so much too, murderers to thieves. I had to take a razor off someone once after had had half slashed his wrists,bit of a tussel and I spoke to him for some time afterwards. A Catholic Father friend of mine told me I did not handle it right I should have been less sympathetic and more physically dynamic. I do not know what was the right way through, I came to the conclusion, that I would do my best in the situations that I encountered, and I honestly felt that I did not know if I helped anyone, and in some ways it was irrelevant,I do know I tried my best. and did not feel uncentered
Mazes are interesting places, not pleasant, they can take along time to find the exit, and one may choose from a variety of exits. From the great debates of this evening we know there are no mazes nor exits,It sounds glib but my exit is zazen Eko will actually have to work his out,
I do not know him

Howard All I am saying is I do not really want to share Ekos feelings,If we get tangled up in all is one we are part of everything that is fine,as a preference I do not really want to have anything to do with him or his teaching

Chisan
Well ok Howard but so what

I don't think I am getting the gist of this question from fellow zafu pilot..

I think that not wanting to empathize with (x,y or z) is understandable but is not conditional to want. Sitting, letting go of want with everything else, allows for little separation between self and other.

Empathy is not manufactured, or a product of want or not, so much as just the experience of existence untainted by our own identity.

When we can't do that, well OK, that's just life where we are and everything changes but saying so what, is like saying why meditate?

Sharing anothers position or feelings is just understanding/relating to them and is not the same as becoming them. Look around and you might find that some of the people most vehemently against Eko are the same folks that share his tendencies.

The danger with not empathizing is not that we might not be able to help Eko but that we will not see how similar our weaknesses might be to his.



H.

Sorry I do not think my weaknesses are remotely similar to Eko's

Off to bed guys I have an early start

Chisan

In my work with people, I find they appreciate empathy, even when I don't agree with them. Feeling empathy for a person can be an excellent way to make them want to open up, which is the first step to change. It is the opposite of judgment. There are many teens that I would gladly strangle, they are so well practiced and adept at making you hate them. But collect myself and try to find what makes them tick and why they are so angry (in Eko's case, why so lustful of power and domination) and no doubt there will be a sad tale going way way back that makes the sorry result of Eko's recent actions (or those of anyone) make sense to them, or had them feeling compelled to do what they did. Sometimes people are unable to let empathy in. In that case, judgment, karma, whatever, will eventually work its pitiless magic to get through the armor. Or not. Many tools in the universal toolbox.

PS What are you exiting when you sit zazen?

Chisan

Anger, self serving rigidity and skirt whispering were Eko's most notable weaknesses.
I wish I could say that I was beyond such taints.



H

Howard,

No they weren't. His most notable weaknesses were lust for power, domination, and finding pleasure in others' helplessness. Are those your weaknesses?

Henry?

What are you exiting when you sit zazen?



If Zazen is ego dieting, then exiting is feeding it.

H

They all seem like different parts of the same weakness. The distance between civility and savagery often seems to me paper thin. No further apart than the feeding or dieting of ones ego. Empathy helps show me that there by the grace of(fill in the deity of your choice) go I.



I think they are everyones potential weakness. The people that indulge in such weaknesses are also those who at some time probably denied that they could ever be so. I prefer to try to be open to seeing that I too could have such a vulnerability than to unknowingly find myself fully intrenched in such activity from willfull blindness.



Are they my weaknesses?....YES! Are we still friends?

H

You guys have a really good energy

Henry I think you must help alot of people in your job. I hope you don't get banned before I do.
Chisanmichaelhughes to heck with bodhidharma and jesus, I think you were ryokan in a past life.
Howard most of your posts are like "magic eye" pictures: gibberish until I look at them for a while and the genius in them crystalises before my eyes.
stan, keep stirring up this soup of crazy zen masters!


EDIT: concerning empathy. Sometimes when someone has done something very harmful I try to imagine the little boy or girl they once were and all the bad things that were done to them and the incorrect ideas that were put into their minds to make them the way they are. It makes me very sad.

Strangely, the most empathy I have ever felt was for someone who was no longer alive. It was a victim. A pagan Saxon lady who, as could be seen by the damage on the hip joints, had been raped 1.5 thousand years ago. After she had been raped she became pregnant and so her husband and the community would have found out what had happened. She was thrown into a grave and broken and crushed by large rocks being hurled down on her. I was excavating her twisted skeleton, my face inches away from her, removing the stones from her shattered skull, uncovering the bones of the tiny, unborn baby. Something strange happens when you excavate a skeleton. You fall in love with the person. They haunt you. I was dreaming about her at night. I cried for her. I was the first person in all of history who saw what had happened to her, who could reach out across the thousands of years and say "I see it. I see what they did. I'm so sorry"

Howard,

Yes we're still friends, but please inform me when these weaknesses go from the potential of seeds to full grown sequoias.



To your previous post: No wonder I'm getting chubby and the likelihood of being banned from polite society draws ever nearer.



I think we need a pub version of OBC Connect. The Buckingham Palace version gets oppressive. Unfortunately we pub people are too **** lazy to create one.

Henry wrote:

I think we need a pub version of OBC Connect.

Does anyone else want one? I could put one up I guess. But I wouldn't do one that was specifically about slating the OBC (though people would be welcome to do that if they wished). Are there any pro obcers reading this who would break their silence and post on such a forum?

Glory,

I believe those tears weren't in vain. They must go somewhere to do some good. Don't you think?

Henry wrote:

Glory,

I believe those tears weren't in vain. They must go somewhere to do some good. Don't you think?

I hope so Henry.

Henry

I'll call your Sequoia and raise you three triffids.

You've got it easy, even my spelling mistakes get (banned).

Maybe we could ask lise to open up a pub in the basement section of the OBC connect with warnings for all sensitive folks with dainty constitutions to only descend at their peril. I see secret passwords, spittoons, wild girls, bad spelling and a hitching post outside for my plant friends. A place where men can be m...


What? yes of course dear I'll be right there.

Howard wrote:

Maybe we could ask lise to open up a pub in the basement section of the OBC connect with warnings for all sensitive folks with dainty constitutions to only descend at their peril.

In a word . . . no.

But if you do open a pub room somewhere, I'll come visit you.

L.

Where is there room to place a zafu? I see no space for it.

Howard,

Please don't make me pee in my pants. Anyway, I think it's finally time for bed, or so my wife tells me.

Lise
But if you do open a pub room somewhere, I'll come visit you.

The wild girl section is yours.



Mark
Where is there room to place a zafu? I see no space for it

Trust the force luke, A zafu and space always make way for the other.
PS Bring extra batterys for the light saber as you're going to be the bouncer.



Henry
Please don't make me pee in my pants. Anyway, I think it's finally time for bed, or so my wife tells me.

Depends? More than just a spare zafu! You could be our fashion poster boy and warning sign all in one.


Cheers All

Henry I do not understand
What are you exiting when you sit zazen?
I dont personally exit anything, nor keep Eko in, or keep Eko out when I sit

More importantly I am pleased Kpzan found the apple did he eat it,throw it away or leave it there


The thief
Left it behind-
The moon at the window.

Some one mentioned "Eko's considerable wealth" a while back. Can some one elaborate on that. How does a monk have consederable wealth?

John (deweyboy),

Good to see you posting here again!

Eko's wealth was by way of inheritance from his mother.

Henry I enjoyed reading this,



Chisan

In my work with people, I find they appreciate empathy, even when I don't agree with them. Feeling empathy for a person can be an excellent way to make them want to open up, which is the first step to change. It is the opposite of judgment. There are many teens that I would gladly strangle, they are so well practiced and adept at making you hate them. But collect myself and try to find what makes them tick and why they are so angry (in Eko's case, why so lustful of power and domination) and no doubt there will be a sad tale going way way back that makes the sorry result of Eko's recent actions (or those of anyone) make sense to them, or had them feeling compelled to do what they did. Sometimes people are unable to let empathy in. In that case, judgment, karma, whatever, will eventually work its pitiless magic to get through the armor. Or not. Many tools in the universal toolbox.



I see your situation slightly diferently:

I do not think you would do your job if you did not feelings for other people. Compassion and empathy are not tools that get switched on they are there in abundance and we act with them when needed.



I can not talk of the intricate details of your work but I can say,that the intricate detail of my example of the suicidal man, there was no time for the politness af analysis, no room for for compassion or love,even right or wrong, ignoring personal danger I went for the razor. It was not mentioned there was no great speech, but if there was not empathy compassion love there would have been no action. In fact the guy might not have died that night simply because he knew someone cared enough.



Afterwards the analysis can start it can be said I did not do the correct thing, I should have done this or that,who knows I do not really care I did what I felt was the thing to do immediately.

This happens all the time,my postman whom I respect, saw a young boy fall into the harbour at St Ives in Cornwall,it was high tide and the boy would be washed out by the rip tide and drowned. My friend jumped in and saved the boy's life. He ended up with a george cross medal ,and the remarkable thing is when the boy was hauled out , he realized he could not swim himself, and he then had to be hauled out, much to the amusment of his friends.



These aspects of ourselves come into play when needed,they are not peacock feathers for own adornment,I believe that in some ways the less one knows about zazen the better,simple practice regulary done will guide one through life,and help one act in the right way when action is needed .

Chisan

I feel pretty sure I wouldn't react like either you or your friend. I think my heroism (a very generous term on my part) is confined to my chair.

Henry my stories are not really about heroism as there was not any. It was about spontaneous action,to do your job well ,i think you would have abundance of it,it is most probably what you do without even thinking about it. Despite your many faults you have a very caring side..and that no one can teach you

"I`d love to see a humbled Eko with an open mind and heart ready to be
redeemed. I`d put my arm around that man in an instant. It would be an honor.

To come out with a statement like that takes almost a hero in my book. No doubt
made without having to think about it as well. I reckon you could do his old job.

Don`t mean to embarrass Henry. Stan.

Henry,



I concur with Stan. Your statement is the essence of true compassion.



It's nice to see you back here. Please stay.



mokuan