Precepts Question

At OBC, which precepts are taken, and under what circumstances? that is, which precepts do lay sangha take, and which do monastic sangha take?

Is there a particular transmission of precepts here? e.g., the bodhisattva precepts in the Brahma Net Sutra?

thanks!

Hi Jikan -- I'm sure someone will be along to answer your questions shortly. I did not go through the Jukai ceremony at Shasta, where lay people formally receive the Precepts, although I think I remember hearing there were ten.

I'd be interested too to hear which ones the monks take.

Thanks, this helps.

Hmm, no replies. Jikan, there are talks and readings on Shasta's site that have to do with this, probably more from the lay angle rather than monks I'm guessing -- I haven't gone through it -- cheers, L

http://www.shastaabbey.org/teaching-becoming.html

For obvious reasons, I am not up on what Shasta is doing currently. However, when I took the precepts at Jukai, we took the 16 Bodhisattva Precepts. They were administered again at monk ordination, with the admonition that this time there was more at stake. A higher standard of compliance was expected. The way we do it at Dharma Rain, we give the precepts at Jukai as a gift to the new Buddhist to use as they see fit. The next level of accountability is Lay Discipleship, at which time the student/practitioner is choosing a teacher and committing to the temple. At this stage there is a bottom line on sex (honoring commitments), intoxication (no illegal drugs, no coming to practice events under the influence), and speech (respectful truth telling). At monk ordination we administer the same precepts again and add some expectations that were not made explicit at my ordination (at least five years full time residency, service to the temple, following the schedule, following advice of the teacher).
in gassho
Gyokuko

I would clarify that following the advice of the teacher is explicit for the five years of training. However, we also make it clear that personal issues, such as matters of health and finances, etc, are not the business of the teacher. A student can chose to leave the ordination track and continue of the lay disciple track if they wish. Coming back into the ordination track happens with mutual agreement. After the five year period we expect the student to be autonomous, but respect the teacher and look for guidance.

Kyogen

Where's the "Like" button???

Gyokuko and Kyogen:
Sounds like you guys really have it together. How wonderful it would have been for me to know exactly what I was getting into. I really like that you put the expectations right out there in the open. If you can't practice honestly and out in the open, what's the point? The monks or the organization has to be transparent and model what it is that training has to offer and what it's all about. It would be really interesting to experience a retreat with you guys, especially a Dharma talk, after having spent so much time being at the Abbey. I wish the OBC wasn't so Anti-Dharma Rain, because it would have been great for the members to participate in another type of training. Their discrimination is shameful.

For me, my decision to do Jukai came from my meditation and was purely intuitional. No one told me what it was exactly. There was a pamphlet on "Taking the Precepts" which did not help me at all. Taking Jukai at the Abbey (1999) was completly different than what Gyokuko and Kyogen are talking about. Just like everything I went through at the Abbey, it was obscure, secretive, mystical, etc...

As far as my understanding goes, Jukai represented the "10 pure precepts" that are followed by lay people in the OBC literature. I don't know how those compare or contrast other sects. One couls also take the "Bodhisattva Vows" in a separate ceremony. This was a "secret" of sorts and very few people even knew about it. As far as a lay-discipleship goes, there was no ceremony offered to me and there were no expectations openly lined out. The difficult part of that for me was that there were expectations, but it was like a cruel game or dangerous dance between two people whereby one person had all the information and the other one had none. I grew to hate being a lay-disciple as it completly cut off my spiritual growth and happiness and left me in a constant state of insecurity and self-hatred. I hated being under the watchful eye of a pompous, cruel, manipulative (I'll stop there, but I could go on) "master."

Diana, it brings me pain to hear about your experience. Thank God you escaped with your sanity and your health together so you could work on your recovery and help others along the way.

Diana the "Like button" is the small + on the top right of a post, and marks the post with a green bar. The - is the dislike button which marks the post with a red bar. Once you have used them on a post they disappear for that post.

Hello Diana,

Thank you for your comments about how we work with precepts and students. As for Dharma talks, they are available on-line at:

http://www.dharma-rain.org/?p=audio_dharmatalks

I did one in January about precepts as practice called "The Professor and the Teacup."

There is more information on expectations in our precepts and ethics guidelines which you can find at:

http://www.dharma-rain.org/?p=about_ethics

With palms joined,

Kyogen