Religious Identity and "Isms"

Kyogen wrote:

That's been our experience engaging with the conservative Evangelicals.

Kyogen

I'd like to hear you speak more about the ongoing dialogue you've been having with conservative Evangelicals. While I can see how there is a basis within Buddhism for embracing them I can't see any for them to embrace you. My consistent experience with Evangelical Christians is they engage in the worst form of group-think that results in blatant condemnation of Buddhists, gays, and anyone else that appears on their radar for whatever reason. Since this apparently hasn't happened in your case I must conclude that Bodhisattvas from the Tushita Heaven have descended and worked a miracle.

When you say your identity is "buddhist" it tells me nothing about your deepest truth, (the content on this forum is ample evidence of that)

Hi Bill,

I'm not sure I understand this comment, especially what's in parens. Can you shed a little more light?

Thank you,

mokuan

Bill I agree with your ism comments.
In the zen temple in japan we chanted Buddhist sutras,wore Buddhist robes,lived a zen Buddhist monk life,however real experience of zazen was and is an experience of ones essence,or nature,there were and are no isms attached. That is really what makes what one does relevant and true

Subject: Re: DRZC planting itself on a brownfield Today at 8:35
<table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="90%"><tr><td>[quote=mokuan] </td></tr><tr><td class="quote">When you say your identity is "buddhist" it tells me nothing about your deepest truth, (the content on this forum is ample evidence of that) Hi Bill, I'm not sure I understand this comment, especially what's in parens. Can you shed a little more light? Thank you, mokuan [/quote] </td></tr></table> Hi, Mokuan, Explaining what I put in parenthesis......The content of this forum contains much testimony to the experience of persons while connected to institutions, teachers, and communities who call themselves buddhist. The experiences reported have little to do with the reported goals, values, or practices of buddhism and much to do with the simple human folly of unconscious, misdirected motivations, or even conscious intentionally disguised deception. That is what I intended to say. Hence I am maintaining that the claim to a religious identity itself is not descriptive of any deeper truth about ourselves, and only serves to create false circles of belonging and mythic membership that divide humanity. Blessings, Bill _________________ Bill R. Last edited by cmpnwtr on Sat 1 Dec 2012 - 8:51; edited 1 time in total

chisanmichaelhughes wrote:

Bill I agree with your ism comments.
In the zen temple in japan we chanted Buddhist sutras,wore Buddhist robes,lived a zen Buddhist monk life,however real experience of zazen was and is an experience of ones essence,or nature,there were and are no isms attached. That is really what makes what one does relevant and true

Michael, you state concisely the point I am making. The experiential awareness of essence is not a product or result of mythic membership, and it may even be an impediment. It certainly is demonstrably an impediment in our world to peace and harmony between human beings.

Yes Bill I agree we can not carry Buddhism with us,we have to leave behind everything that can be left behind( impermanence).Our practice that we did yesterday is irrelevant today. Our practice that we did 20 minutes ago has already disappeared.Even a new set of rules is already out of date,no karma no enlightenment,this present mind needs no explanation,nor label. IT is at peace and one with all beings... yes Zazen

chisanmichaelhughes wrote:

,we have to leave behind everything that can be left behind( impermanence).Our practice that we did yesterday is irrelevant today. Our practice that we did 20 minutes ago has already disappeared.Even a new set of rules is already out of date,no karma no enlightenment,this present mind needs no explanation,nor label. IT is at peace and one with all beings... yes Zazen

ly

Precisely..... if we understand our practice is just, as our friend, Kozan, so aptly articulates it, "the healing of small awareness into Big Awareness", then any "isms," any mythic membership, any religious identity with its uniforms, conventions, narratives, and roles (priests, monks, masters..), is not only extraneous but an obstacle to opening to this freedom. We may use metaphoric language at times to describe our practice, but to find some contrived identity in religion and its mythology and institutions, simply creates a phantasmic small circle where only a limitless big circle exists. I am increasingly convinced that religion and religious identity is itself a major destructive force of tribalism in our world. There is ample evidence of it in the many wars and acts of tribal religious violence occurring throughout our planet. Thank you for your comments.

Yes Bill religion can be horribly divisive,One of my friends was blown up by a bomb planted by Muslim extremists in Bali.
I think a problem with zen is found within the confines of the religion,temples seem to need people,people seem to need temples,it is easy to think that the form is the religion,I think a lot of the teacher we have been critical of were teachers that need pupils or disciples,they need to teach them something or show them something. A dependency is created which does not help anyone in a real spiritual way,people stay dependent for years thinking that is spiritual freedom, but it is just a way of hiding insecurity . This vast mind is here the only problem is we are not

chisanmichaelhughes wrote:

Yes Bill religion can be horribly divisive,One of my friends was blown up by a bomb planted by Muslim extremists in Bali.
I think a problem with zen is found within the confines of the religion,temples seem to need people,people seem to need temples,it is easy to think that the form is the religion,I think a lot of the teacher we have been critical of were teachers that need pupils or disciples,they need to teach them something or show them something. A dependency is created which does not help anyone in a real spiritual way,people stay dependent for years thinking that is spiritual freedom, but it is just a way of hiding insecurity . This vast mind is here the only problem is we are not

I'm on the same page with you. I am hoping that new models of spiritual mentoring and practice can evolve that do not involve this kind of hierarchy, roles, and dependency, and most importantly initiation into some kind of mythical membership form of religious identity. I've experienced this to some degree myself through the years (It's when I have grown the most.), where spiritual friend/mentors companioned me in my sitting and inner work, and where I have similarly companioned others who were friend/mentees. Didn't need no robes, temples, bells and smells. At best what we need are networks of spiritual friends supporting other other spiritual friends to sit and bring their sitting into all of life. No bricks and mortar, no money and fund raising, no masters and disciples, no certificates, just friends walking with friends, with dignity, respect, and kindness. I think we are beginning to see attempts to realize this among some spiritual networks in the U.S. For too many people that I have known, having a religious identity becomes a substitute for having a commitment to a daily authentic transformative meditation practice regardless of what tradition they might be associated with.

It is interesting that both Catholic and Bhuddist teaching is that the teaching is a tool for finding the truth that is to be left behind once found. In Bhuddism we have the oft repeated saying that the Dharma is a raft to take you to the other side and that then you go beyond it. There is also the saying that 'you use a thorn to take out a thorn and then you discard them both'. Whilst there is the the Catholic teaching that dogma is a gateway, once you have passed through you have gone beyond dogma. I'm sure in many other 'isms' there are similar teachings but I'm not sufficiently familiar with them to know.
So at their best 'isms' seem to teach that 'isms' are only there to help you beyond 'isms'! But don't say that too loudly you might upset all the Great Teachers / Masters / Gurus who seem to think that their own 'One True Ism' is the only one and it's sole purpose is to enhance their own status and authority.