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 What is TRUST?

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sugin

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PostSubject: What is TRUST?   Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:13 am

I am interested in what others think of trust because the term gets thrown around alot. I am not sure I trust anyone not even myself... I think I usually rely on the saying " I trust people to do what they will do".


Last edited by sugin on Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Howard

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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:45 am

That's a huge question to look at. Here are a few late night thoughts that will be too polarized for some but might still be worth poking around at.

How we experience trust is completely dependant on how we see ourselves, others and more importantly whatever we think might separate these two.

Trust can be the defining line between those who are attracted to practise through meditation and those who find there way through the Master/ disciple relationship.

In the Master/ disciple relationship, trust is essential where as those whose primary practise is meditation will find that trust is a very small issue. (I am not saying that one form of practise is superior to another).

I would bet that those folks in this forum who have been seriously hurt by broken trust come from the Master/disciple camp.

I would also bet that those from the meditation orientation side see that " there but by the grace of god" it could of been us breaking others folks trust.

Trust can manifest from our ego or it's absence.

Meditation (a way to see beyond our conditioning) does not depend on or see trust as inherently good, bad or neutral.

Trust is just a belief in something that is not readily provable to you in this very moment.
If it was provable, you would not need or call for trust to believe it.

Meditation allows the myriad facets of our existence to stand naked on there own, unhindered by our manipulations, hopes or trust.

I know...You ask about trust and I drag meditation into it. Just another one trick pony!
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Lise
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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:07 am

But it’s a good little pony nonetheless yes I trust meditation. There’s no one there but me. I’m not sifting through someone else’s words, on guard for traps or hidden motives. Meditation is a safe place for me.

I trust my inner voice. I look back and see situations where an instinct said “leave this now” and I listened to it. I can’t remember a time when the inner voice wasn’t there in some form. I can’t describe it very well, I can only interpret it as an expression of grace from something I don’t understand. I know I’m not alone here. That is what I trust.
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sugin

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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:53 am

Do you think trust is an instinct for knowing what and who are reliable and true. I agree with the meditation and the sense of being beyond , but I have trouble with beliefs in others and their advice. Needless to say, this leaves me with a suspicion nature and a longing.....
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jack



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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:55 pm

There is trust with a basis and blind trust. It is the blind trust that I have found to be thoroughly unreliable.

I've come to trust much of science. I've done some of the experiments. I've found the experiments to confirm the findings of others. But I don't have time to do all of the experiments. But I trust the methodology enough now to think it likely that if I did the experiments I would come to the same conclusion. So I trust a lot of scientific and engineering that I haven't personally verified.

In a similar way, I've come to develop more trust in some basic tenets of Buddhism that I had when I started because I've been able to verify some by my own experience. But there is still a lot of uncertainty -- even about what the Buddha himself taught, because the history is ancient, verbal and somewhat conflicting. Even the Pali sutras are in some cases clear exaggeration of the possible. (For example, one sutra describes a gathering of the Buddha's monks that would clearly have exceeded the population of India at the time.)

I tend to gag at those who want me to "will" to believe something I don't. I was urged to have "faith" in karma, and other things I am quite uncertain about. I think karma may be true, but usually only on Mondays, Fridays, and sometimes Thursdays if I'm feeling good. The rest of the time I have my doubts. And I'm a lot more skeptical of devas, nagas, and the like. Maybe -- but I'm a Buddhist agnostic when it comes to that.

But there is room in Buddhism for that. The Buddha did teach that you shouldn't accept something on the basis of tradition, culture, or even the word of another. There's practical as well as spiritual value to that. Your faith in Santa Claus faded when you became older because the belief was only one that had been handed to you (charitably) when you were gullible enough to believe it. It was not based on any real experience and could not be verified by yourself.

The Buddha also told Ananda, "Be a lamp unto yourself." The reality you need to see is not outside you in someplace for you to find. No one can show it to you. Buddhism, among other religions, does give you a map to help finding it, but the "seeing," like your physical sight, only is undeniable because it is impossible for you to separate yourself from the experience. Imagine if you've never seen anything, though you inherently have good eyesight, that it would useful for someone to point out that you can achieve "sight" by opening your eyes. But the convincing experience of sight would have to come from opening your eyes.

I'm not the master/disciple type to use Howard's phrasing. I've not yet found anyone reliable enough to trust completely, in all situations, forever. I'm not convinced that I'm that completely trustworthy myself. I have avoided a lot of catastrophes by understanding that all humans I've encountered live within the boundaries of human beings -- including being vulnerable to human failings and faults, particularly in situations which seem to provide protection from the consequences of their flaws.

I've accepted this uncertainty as part of the transience and impermanence that the Buddha talked about. Certainty about life simply can't be found in existence. Even at the very core of physics, there is uncertainty about knowledge, even about the most fundamental of concepts. To actively embrace that uncertainty and swim within it has been far happier than trying to chase what cannot be found. I did think a few times in my life I had found it, only to realize with time how wrong I had been. The lesson I learned was approximately the following. "Trust is OK, but accept that trust with full comprehension of the uncertainty inherent in it. And don't try to overcome that uncertainty with some kind of effort to 'believe' or 'have faith.' It won't work -- again -- and you, Jack, will be the sorrier for your effort."

So at the end of the day, I have to trust my own mind/heart. It IS the best I can do. And so far, while not perfect, it's been far more reliable than any other basis I've found.

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sugin

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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:15 pm

In Memory of John....

God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I'll say it again,
God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I don't believe in magic,
I don't believe in I-ching,
I don't believe in bible,
I don't believe in tarot,
I don't believe in Hitler,
I don't believe in Jesus,
I don't believe in Kennedy,
I don't believe in Buddha,
I don't believe in mantra,
I don't believe in Gita,
I don't believe in yoga,
I don't believe in kings,
I don't believe in Elvis,
I don't believe in Zimmerman,
I don't believe in Beatles,
I just believe in me,
Yoko and me,
And that's reality.
The dream is over,
What can I say?
The dream is over,
Yesterday,
I was dreamweaver,
But now I'm reborn,
I was the walrus,
But now I'm John,
And so dear friends,
You just have to carry on,
The dream is over.
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Lise
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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:35 pm

sugin wrote:
. . . I agree with the meditation and the sense of being beyond , but I have trouble with beliefs in others and their advice. .....

Sugin, this is how I am. I cannot ask anyone for advice anymore nor ask a spiritually-oriented question. I didn't used to be this way, but now I look for ulterior motives, convinced that everyone has an angle or agenda. Maybe someday that will dissipate.

jack wrote:
. . . The Buddha also told Ananda, "Be a lamp unto yourself." . . .

. . . So at the end of the day, I have to trust my own mind/heart. It IS the best I can do. And so far, while not perfect, it's been far more reliable than any other basis I've found.

Right on, Jack.

Lise
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Howard

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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:52 pm

I trust my inner voice. I look back and see situations where an instinct said “leave this now” and I listened to it. I can’t remember a time when the inner voice wasn’t there in some form. I can’t describe it very well, I can only interpret it as an expression of grace from something I don’t understand. I know I’m not alone here. That is what I trust.
Lise. What a lovely expression of grace about trust.

This may not be new info for anyone but trust at the OBC seemed to require both believing that seniors had your best interests at heart and that their experience enabled them to point out the pitfalls ahead that were not currently visible to you.
This trust was broken for some when their own best interests were trumped by some seniors' personal koans or by the institutions habitual circling of the wagons in the face of some expression of doubt. I understand the initial need for some blind trust in another's instructions for venturing onto a new path but surely part of those instructions are how to develop the skills to make your own way on that path. Meditation has been my compass for navigating this path..
I've mostly been able to dump all the advise, beliefs & trust into the field of meditation and to the degree that I can get myself out of the way is the degree to which all thats left over is what the next moment requires. It doesn't depend on people, advise, belief or trust nor does it reject them. Each nano second of meditation leaves an equivalent nano second of view of where to place my next foot. When and where I am unable to get myself out of the way, fog, a sense of being separated from the world and general stubbornness increases until eventually, I ( being a complete wuss in the face of suffering) let go of it all again.

Sugin, Have you considered that your expressed trouble with "beliefs in others and their advise" may be something positive..
If your path lies in seeing " grace" through a teacher then you do have reason to be concerned by your suspicious nature. If however, meditation is your path, then your suspicious (questioning) nature may be one of your strongest assets in finding your way. While a questioning nature may cost you in an overall certainty of purpose, the payment on the other side of the balance can come in the form of the clarity of the examined moment. The loss of comfort from no longer being wrapped up in your own or anothers certainty can be balanced against the complete freedom to move in whatever direction that " grace" illuminates for you. Although acceptance in a community of your peers feels great because it mirrors the spiritual experience, on its own it's a poor substitute for being awake.


Last edited by Howard on Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : It just wasn't quite pompous enough!)
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IanPatton

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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:40 am

If you put your trust in change, you won't be disappointed.
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Iain

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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:31 am

IanPatton wrote:
If you put your trust in change, you won't be disappointed.

I think you are right Ian, something I can relate to there!

And in this saha world maybe trust too in the unavoidability of dukkha. Unsatisfactoriness. Suffering. Not getting the things you want and getting a heck of a lot of those things you don't want at all. Stuff hitting the fan no matter how hard you try. You can rely on it.

Way back then the Buddha had a lot to say about all that eh? Of course he lived in a different age when there was no modern psycotherapy to relate to, and our risk averse process documented Health and Safety culture wasn't even a dream.

And he lived in an Asian culture too, another big advantage. Maybe easier to find 'acceptance' over here 'out East'. Perhaps our history makes us think and feel differently. sunny
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IanPatton

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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:08 pm

Thanks very much for your comment Iain. Trust has been an issue of mine from childhood and is something that for me has detonated more times than I can remember ... ah yes, the ever patient eternal has given me many Facebook pokes in this regard Laughing

It doesn't matter, the person, the organization, the circumstances ... the weather ... it will change, because change is an underlying reality of what ever the heck all this is. Paradoxically change is itself, unchanging bedrock.

The beauty of change for me is exemplified in that old saying (best done in a Jersy accent), "nuttin' poiconal, it's just business." It's not to say that we don't do our best within our own circumstances, and try to correct wrongs using what ever wisdom we may have accumulated; that is compassion (wisdom is using the precepts over say an AK-47). Change is not an excuse for inaction; there will be plenty of time for inaction when you're dead! Using change as an excuse for inaction is rather like saying, "well, there's gravity so we won't bother building an aeroplane." So we build them and fly in them knowing with 100% certainty, that from time-to-time they will crash even if we do the best maintenance we possibly can. And when it crashes, there will be pain and lots of it, but as we all know, pain is not suffering. Pain is not personal, suffering very definitely is.

I've never tried to articulate this before, so if it seems a bit of a mish-mash, my apologies ... I just got up and I find I'm out of coffee ... sorry to all the Brits here, but tea just doesn't make it Laughing I guess for me, taking refuge in the eternal is actually taking refuge in change. It really does seem to lighten my heart.

Hope this is helpful ... please comment.
Ian
... BTW, anybody got any spare change lol!


Last edited by IanPatton on Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:27 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : I used a [banned term]. Had I known, I'd have used a riper one ;) and typos, typos, typos!)
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Mia



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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:52 pm

Lise wrote:
now I look for ulterior motives, convinced that everyone has an angle or agenda. Maybe someday that will dissipate.

I did exactly that for about 20 years (as a result of a rough childhood), but once I'd found a place where I felt safe enough to let my defenses down, the reflex eventually dissipated for good. So it can do. I'm quite shocked that people aren't "taking advantage" of me now that I'm not being defensive. Most people are actually well-meaning, albeit frequently misinformed. As for the ones who try to hurt me, because I'm less defensive for some reason it hurts less than it used to.
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Lise
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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:52 pm

Hi Mia,

In time I hope to be where you are, in terms of letting defenses down. They're a heavy weight on some days. I should say this is mostly in regard to the spiritual / religious setting. I'm more or less ok in the rest of life -- work, family, recreation. I feel like I know what those people might want and I can read them well enough to navigate through it. As for spiritual advisers, well, . . . not s'much.
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Mia



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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:55 am

Oh, you meant in terms of spiritual advisers. I'm glad that you're ok with everything else In terms of spiritual teachers, I've encountered five different kinds roughly speaking -


  • people who consistently and effectively point towards that inner expression of grace
  • people who sometimes do, but other times misunderstand or judge
  • people who are better at leading by example, being compassionate and thoughtful, but are less good at putting things in words without stepping on someone's toes
  • people who consistently throw emotional tantrums in one form or other, but still give wise insights from time to time
  • none of the above
It's the same with anyone of course, though an adviser has special responsibilities and there's so little margin for error. My wish would be that advisers take care not to be prejudiced or judgmental, and that they ask more questions. Suggestions can then only ever be offered, and in a healthy situation it should be up to us whether we want to take it on board or not. What people in a sheltered situation sometimes don't seem to understand is that when you're emotionally or spiritually exhausted and world-weary, you don't have the strength and ability to discriminate wisely. It's such a vulnerable and important time. If I went back to advise a younger self I would have to say "human beings are inconsistent, though they try not to be and some arebetter at it than others. Everyone is capable of saying somethingfoolish and something wise. Learn to discriminate the expression of Truth as quickly as you can and listen only to that. Don't waste time judging people."
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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:41 pm

I like that, Mia -- the idea of advising a younger self. I wonder if mine would listen to me, if I could get five minutes of her time Razz She might be surprised at where the spiritual path seems to be going.

Not that many years ago I thought there was probably just "one right way" on the path and it was only a matter of recognizing it, and that someone else would have to help me see it. What an epiphany, to realise none of that applies --
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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:41 pm

Such a great question--and such great comments by everyone here--including Shakyamuni (thanks Jack)!

Sugin, I've been reflecting on your question since you posted it.

What is TRUST?

My dictionary defines trust as confidence in the honesty, integrity, or reliability of...

Both our culture, and the experience of the existential dilema (change, loss, threat, insufficiency, inadequacy, alienation, pain, death...) tend to encourage us to focus our trust on external conditions and people--or spiritual teaching and teachers.

My conclusion: I think that the only trust required for spiritual practice is confidence in the integrity of that-which-is our own awareness itself. This makes it possible for spiritual practice to serve as a methodology for understanding--subject to testing and verification--as is science (as Jack mentioned). Which also makes it possible to continually reassess the accuracy of spiritual teaching and the effectiveness of spiritual practice.

In my experience, solving the existential dilema is, ultimately, simply a matter of following trust back home--to Awareness itself.
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PostSubject: Re: What is TRUST?   Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:03 am

I see trust as an emotional need, a basic necessity to the building of a real bond (a fellowship) and a part of the vitality of spiritual practice.
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