Costco labels Bibles as fiction

I have to admit I enjoyed this article a little more than I should have. Would anyone have noticed if a book from a non-Christian tradition had been similarly labeled, hmm. I think it makes sense to label all of them that way. Maybe they could say "fiction to some, non-fiction to others, no offense intended either way".  

I would be tickled to learn than one of the Costco minions gave expression to her/his own opinion, deliberately, in creating the sales label. And, this is totally something I would do if I thought I could get by with it.

unh huh. kinda funny, but we must maintain appearances and do the corporate backpedal, or is that back-peddle...
the Bible still sells.
Fiction to you...?
oh well.
and, why, Lise, why?
(not that you have to answer that)
Do you think people gave their lives for "fiction?" I guess is the question I had for myself.

Lise I'm shocked that you enjoyed this clear misrepresentation. Should it not have been in the fantasy section?

It is an article of my religious faith that all religious faiths are fantasies.

ooh, that's better, the fantasy section, next to the hobbits, unicorns, mermaids, leprechauns, yetis, flying spaghetti monsters, woodland faeries, Lemurians, Scientologists and OBC.

Being free to poke fun at all things presenting themselves as somber, sacred teachings, but more closely resembling humbug - that might be my religion -

But that's anathema Lise;

I cast thee out, I cast thee out , I cast thee out! 

There that'll teach you.

I'll let you know whether that did any good.

Since you aren't tasseled nor certified any longer, my demons aren't too worried

Lise: Whups, then this AM it dawned on me that many, many people gave their lives for Nazism, and took many many lives as well...
and many other, all conflicts -- those at war believed, something--that this is the honorable way, and dishonor lies in turning your back on shedding blood. That famous story of the Christmas Eve cease fire WWI, where the Germans began singing Christmas songs, the British joined in, and one by one they met in No Man's Land, shook hands, exchanged rations, and played soccer...
The next day, commanders on both sides cycled out the front lines and reinserted new troops in the stinking, disease-ridden, trenches.  They knew once they'd had a moment of peace--these soldiers would not kill.

So Lise -- Where does peace come from?  Mark -- If you don't want the practice of religion, do you have another way?

Pete, I am tempted to change your username to Debbie Downer and put up a picture of her as your avatar if you don't lighten up and give us a break from the spiritual examination ceremonies  

There are joke threads on the forum. This is one of them.

You're welcome

Followup piece has a few chuckles from Twitter comments.  I agree with Becky:  God should hold a book signing -

Lise: Whatever's right.  I never thought to call myself Debbie Downer but? One Note Johnny, yeah.  I hope the Downer family will have me for Thanksgiving.  (Note: I didn't say Donner Party)

If they did, here's what you can look forward to


Nothing personal, btw.

pete mundy wrote:

 Mark -- If you don't want the practice of religion, do you have another way?

Ah, pete! the nub of the problem - straight to the point. I gave he beginnings of what I thought was an answer on another thread in July 2012, here.

but I'll quote the relevant parts of the conversation again:

Josh started, commenting on an earlier post wrote:

yes, buddhism will survive even not-so-great hip hop.

I replied wrote:

Survive? I hope not; transform? perhaps. I am very much with the Dalai Lama's twitter that I think Josh reported to the effect that we need to develop a non-religious spirituality. All religions bear the marks of the time in which they were founded and developed, many centuries if not millennia ago. They are imbued with the primitive beliefs, magic and feudalism of the ages of their birth. That does not mean that they are empty of truth just that the container betrays the unmistakable marks and faults of the era of its origin. And unfortunately we often mistake, or even worse are taught to mistake, the container for the truth.

Then Brigitte asked about the Dalai Lama's tweet and I replied:
Brigitte - I can't find the post either, maybe it was not Josh but someone else. My apologies all round if I have the posters mixed up.
Anyhow here is the Dalai Lama's tweet with a link to the original:
'I am increasingly convinced that the time has come to find a way of thinking about spirituality and ethics beyond religion altogether.'
2:12 AM - 13 Jun 12 via web http://twitter.com/DalaiLama/status/212834857208905729

My view is that we have yet to update our religions, even it were possible to update them, to a modern more evidence based scientific era. There are those in Christianity that still argue over the difference between trans-substantiation and con-substantiation. And all religions still preach the reality of miracles, myth and magic. We don't need them. We can build a perfectly good spiritual case without them basing it on our better understanding of scientific, psychological and spiritual causation and health by using evidence based methodologies.

It would be a lot of work but some seem to have started, sometimes unwittingly, down that road. And it would definitely lay to rest the 'I Am THE Great Guru' crowd that says follow me (especially to bed and /or the bank) and obey my every whim and I will teach you Everything.

Is there anything happening, even experimentally along these lines. Well, there are those who just continue practices like zazen shorn of all the superfluous stuff, which is just great. But also I think that the various modern mindfulness movements (MBSR, MBCT etc.) are at least trying to put the contemplative/meditative life on a sounder footing too. The devotional side, which is just as valid but to which I am much less drawn, is I think more problematic. However this is also beginning to be addressed by devotions such as humanist services. (Google: humanist sunday service )

I don't pretend to have an answer, just a tentative personal direction. For me the important thing is to get away from the fundamentalism and absolutism that comes with The Truth and move towards a warmer more open and human position where the often beautiful myths, allegories and illustrations of traditional religions can be learned from without the necessity to believe them to be absolute historical truth. And the effective practices can be discerned from the dangerous, ineffective and culturally determined aspects. This way we can grow a modern spirituality, tailored '...to each each according to their needs' (to misquote somebody or other).

gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā


(Lise this thread was developing into much too much fun - and that had to be stopped!)

(Well done, sir, and I thank you for that.)

Indeed (to echo Lise), well said, Mark!

Debbie Downer says.....

It ain`t never going to change.  A religion/spirituality for our times ?  What`s changed in our
natures since the cave man times ?  i-pods, cars,man on the moon, modern medicine ?  If
anything, things seem to have gone backwards if you believe the evolution theory.  The same
war, starvation and ignorance scenario is still operating beautifully.  Is there a special greed,
hate and delusion for our times ?  So long as people base their lives on their likes and dislikes
and think that they are basically a history of their likes and dislikes, nothings going to change.

Modern western society has got to be the most difficult society by far, for the practice of a
true spirituality .  Everything is geared from day one to tell us that we are incomplete, limited
and needy little beings...the exact opposite of the truth.  We are endlessly bombarded with the
`antidotes` to this limited feeling in the form of objects to run after, buy, possess and identify
with.  What are we without the better car, more money, higher status...it`s always bigger, more
different.  we can even take on different identities to suit one`s choice.  a [banned term] dyke
lesbian with goth leanings. something new tomorrow.  Impoverished societies handle their poverty
better than we do our wealth.  Why is the entertainments industry so powerful ?  It seems that
we just can`t accept ourselves just as we are...the proof is in the doing.
Chasing after objects for happiness...and compared to us, everything is an object...is pointless
but, we keep on doing it.  we get temporary happiness/peace and think that it somehow comes
from the object.  it never does...it`s not in the object or that object would work for everyone.
The blond babe will not make the gay guy happy at all.  It`s an endless circle of desire....the
very definition of Samsara.

The idea that spirituality needs to be scientific arises because so much religious teaching relies
on holding on to beliefs.  Beliefs are only unexamined opinions...might or might not be true.  Not
worth any more than any other opinion.  Beliefs are a right royal impediment in life...whether
worldly or `spiritual`.  Basing our lives around beliefs is a recipe for disaster.  It`s this element
that sorely needs removing from all religious teaching, in particular.

The truth has always been around along with the ignorance of it.  It usually seems to get covered
by Ignorance as it gets institutionalized, due to changing interpretations and corruptions.  There
already is a `science` element in Buddhism and is more noticeable in the early teachings .  Didn`t
the Buddha say, "Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books."  (from
the Dhammapada.)

My personal opinion is that the fundamental Buddhist teachings need collating and putting into a
coherent methodology of Ignorance removal. Saving all the aspects that stand up to a reasoned
inquiry and rejecting the rest as misleading but worthy of inspection.  There is a vast body of work
that has still not been translated into English and also a lot that has been permanently lost.

It shouldn`t be beyond the ken of man to sort the wheat from the chaff to... eventually....collate
a very comprehensive and agreed upon teaching by all Buddhist schools. This would refine the
methodology of the teaching and distance it from relying too much on teachers.  Hopefully, this
would then give the students a way of checking if the teachers are leading them astray.  It would
also give the teachers a way to check themselves to see if they are going off track.  Vagueness,
beliefs, noble silences...non of these are helpful.  It would be a big job involving a lot of mutual
co operation and respect.  No reason why it shouldn`t be a very joyful coming together though.

There always has been the science aspect in Buddhism but most seekers are just not interested in
that aspect.  They want to lay down their problems and merge into something whole (holy), pure
and true...which is completely understandable and natural. They want it to become a permanent
experience once they have some experience of this. Trouble is, we are holy, pure and true.  It`s
what our self nature is.  It`s not an accident or mistake so we can`t remake what`s already made.
The teachings need to unfold this truth thoroughly and remove all paradoxes and doubt through
understanding.  The science is there if it`s looked for. It just takes a mature mind to want to use
it.

Debbie.

Stan, your temporary pen name, now forever merged in my mind with your avatar pic, are causing trouble - I can't quite stop giggling, which is hard when I'm trying to drink coffee, the foam spews everywhere. I blame you completely   

It is a sad way to live, to be chasing after things/people/whatever we believe will fix the parts of ourselves that are incomplete & limited, not good enough, etc. My thought is that people do wake from this and I'm optimistic that this movement or direction will only increase over time, not go the other way. Maybe it depends on having gone through the phase of coveting materials goods and gadgets, and enjoying more of the "stuff" that prosperity brings, if one is lucky enough to experience financial security. I can understand people wanting to roll around a bit in the materialistic stage before looking at the "unplug/downsize/get in touch with what matters more" stage.

I'm interested to see what happens as a result of more children being raised without being required to believe that the "original sin" religions are necessarily true. My son was raised without any formal religious indoctrination and I know other families have done the same, and it is noticeable in how the kids respond to what they see and hear about religion. Nothing about the Bible or any other "holy" scriptures has the power to frighten him or induce guilt, and to me this is huge. If people are not taught from the outset that they are deficient, perhaps they'll waste less of their lives in trying to be "good enough" by grabbing and clinging, or by subjugating their "needy" selves. Of course we don't need more "Me monsters" running over the rights of others, but healthy self-regard is a must.

I'm rambling this morning. Back soon with more, but for now I need to go eat my bagel.

Ah, yes but ...research shows that pessimists are more often correct than optimists. Because of this  I have deliberately convinced myself that I'm going to win a small fortune on the lottery, not a large one! Which will be going some since I never buy a ticket.

Somebody might buy you one Mark !   Then again, might not.......

Lise,

Ha flipin` ha .....  My dear wife/ she who must be obeyed, also laughs at that webcam avatar
of mine.  insists I change it...which is why I don`t, of course !  sorry about the coffee...not.
Anyway, it seems you have the advantage over me. I don`t recall seeing your features on the
forum.. ?

Apart from that, I don`t disagree with anything you said.  I was brought up as a Catholic and
had a belyfull of that a long time ago.  I did glean a few `nuggets` as you call them from my
sojourn there.   There`s religion and religion gone wrong.  There`s a nugget of truth in all of
them, which is why they survive.  Most of it`s a set up for keeping social order.
Out of interest, the old hebrew original meaning of sin is `missing` as in missing the mark or
mistaken.  not guilt.

I don`t have a beef about enjoying anything in the `world`.  It`s just the attachment element
that rubs me up the wrong way.  I don`t like to be a slave to my psychology and my
unconscious impulses commonly otherwise known as the Vasanas.  Whether we are a slave of
our likes and dislikes is apparent in our actions.  sorry `bout the technical term.

I believe that we are all taught to believe that we are incomplete and thus needy, long before
we hear about any religion.  No blame, it all just gets passed down the line and we get suckered
into believing it.  How were we supposed to know.  We were all born as little babies full of purity
and innocence. We were ignorant as a loaf of bread and totally dependent on our parents for
survival.  We had no option but to accept what they gave us...materially and mentally.

I guess I`m rambling now too.  I hope you enjoyed your bagel.  Don`t dunk it in your coffee for
a bit of `extra` enjoyment, by any chance ?

oh yes, a cinnamon-raisin bagel gets dunked. Today's was an onion bagel though, used for scooping up Wattie's beans, and tomatoes & mushrooms.  And lovely bits of marinated-then-baked tofu (we're a veg household). I got a real breakfast today, am in a food coma now, can't write or think

Just reading Stans post I couldn't help but be reminded of my "slavish" attachment to "needing" to have my coffee hot, and recalling the ice cold cups in the dining hall and trying to warm them up by cupping them in my hands so that when the coffee finally did arrive to preserve the last bit of heat. ( it's evident I'm still working on getting rid of suffering)

Just one last afterthought: It just seems that often the very small things in this life have a way of making the real sufferings a bit more bearable.

Brigitte, they do, absolutely. Some of the small things that make me feel better -

an orderly closet, with my work clothes ironed
the interior of my car is freshly cleaned and free of clutter
I see two or more kinds of coffee in the cabinet
the workweek is very short - like this one

Stan Giko wrote:

. . .

The truth has always been around along with the ignorance of it.  It usually seems to get covered by Ignorance as it gets institutionalized, due to changing interpretations and corruptions.  There already is a `science` element in Buddhism and is more noticeable in the early teachings .  Didn`t the Buddha say, "Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books."  (from
the Dhammapada.)

My personal opinion is that the fundamental Buddhist teachings need collating and putting into a coherent methodology of Ignorance removal. Saving all the aspects that stand up to a reasoned inquiry and rejecting the rest as misleading but worthy of inspection.  There is a vast body of work that has still not been translated into English and also a lot that has been permanently lost.

It shouldn`t be beyond the ken of man to sort the wheat from the chaff to... eventually....collate a very comprehensive and agreed upon teaching by all Buddhist schools. This would refine the methodology of the teaching and distance it from relying too much on teachers.  Hopefully, this would then give the students a way of checking if the teachers are leading them astray.  It would also give the teachers a way to check themselves to see if they are going off track.  Vagueness,
beliefs, noble silences...none of these are helpful.  It would be a big job involving a lot of mutual co operation and respect.  No reason why it shouldn`t be a very joyful coming together though.
 
. . .
 

Collating the fundamental sensible ideas into one place makes a lot of sense. My instinct would be to not even label it Buddhism though, to avoid scaring off those whose current religions tell them that other faiths are dangerous or heretical. (S. Gautama could be given his credit & accolades in the footnotes and endnotes.)

"Ignorance removal" has got to be part of the document title. I am just waiting to use that phrase on someone in the office today. 

It would be pretty fantastic of all the schools of Buddhism (and other religions) could come together at least long enough to note the major points they agree on -  some useful end product might actually result. That's if everyone doesn't get bogged down once again in wrangling over what was meant by "dispense with the lesser rules". No need to stir that up again -

I'm with you there, Lise, especially on the Coffee thing.  .