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 A postive thing about the NCBP

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PostSubject: A postive thing about the NCBP   Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:58 am

I wanted to post something here,

because though this doesn't negate the actions of the NCBP, not everything regarding them has been negative.

They have their Karma, but they have also done some good as well.

When my spouse and I returned to Washington State, after me having gone back to our former state, for a while then Marrying her,

We were essentially homeless.

Literally, we had had a horrible catastrophe happen to us and this occurred right at the same time as the Economy collapsing.

We lived in a tent, down the road a few miles from the Priory, camped out off the side of a road.

Durring this time, the NCBP did many things to support us.

They helped get my spouse a job.

They hired us to do things around the priory for a few bucks an hour.

They gave us a bicycle to use on an extended long-term loan.

And, most importantly, and very helpfully along with the Job hookup,

They gave us Buster, the brown truck that Rev. Master Mokushin had inherited from her brother.


Yes, the NCBP has made some pretty bad mistakes.

But they are not monsters.

They are human beings and have done good as well.

We split with the NCBP when our spiritual needs wern't being met, and their departure from the OBC pretty much nailed it down for us, as staying with the OBC is a no-brainer for us.

Since that time, our financial situation has improved greatly, as have our career and business prospects.

But the fact is, they helped us, sometimes, I think somewhat reluctantly, but they helped us all the same.

I think that's important to say because there's so much negative on this board, and quite frankly that's perhaps part of their karma, but they've also done at least some merit.

I think in fairness, that's good to say.

In Gassho,

Sara H
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Kozan
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:58 am

Thanks for all of this Sara. Koshin, Mokushin, and I go back a very long way--to the 1970's. I am glad to hear about your good experiences with my old friends.

I hope that they--and those in their care--are doing well.
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:14 am

It's good to read something (almost completely) positive about NCBP.

Thank you, Sara.
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:32 am

You're welcome!

You know, I just want to say too, that Rev. Basil, is an amazing monk.

He is such a wonderful example of training in the midst of suffering.

He always keeps his head up and attitude high.
And really seems to do his own training.

As one monk at Shasta said "he always seems to float to the top doesn't he?"

Yes he does.

He's a good monk.

In Gassho,

Sara H
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:40 am

You know, there was one time, I remember, when I was having a hard time, and I think Koshin really saw, that he had been too hard, he's kindof a klunk, Koshin is,
and anyway, he had Rev. Clemmet give me a treat.

It was a half a poppy seed muffin heated up with some canned peaches on top.

It was just a little thing, but it was really sweet.

I knew he cared.

Koshin's not a monster.

He has love, and feelings like everyone else.

He's a really dense person, and has plenty of karma and has made some pretty bit mistakes.

But he has love in him too.

I think it's important to remember that when talking about people on here, because if you just go off on a rant about hurt that has happened to you you forget the other side of it, that a person is human and they make mistakes.

Even if they arn't a good teacher, and even if you need to end the relationship for your own training or part ways, they are still a human being.

They have the Buddha Nature.

It's good to remember that.

In Gassho,

Sara H
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:28 pm

I wanted to post part of a reply here to a post Isan made in another thread as it seems appropriate to this topic.

Isan wrote:
Clearly you have had many positive experiences in relation to NCBP and monks at Shasta, and understandably you're grateful for them.

You misunderstand friend,

Koshin and I are not on speaking terms.

That doesn't mean that I can't see him as a human being, and see the love and Buddha Nature in him.

Just because we're not a good fit together, or I disagree with certain choices he has made or tendencies he has, or ways he tends to do things, or recognize that he may have made some Karma, doesn't mean I don't also see that he has a heart, and is not a monster.

They don't stand against one another.

When you do one-sided thinking, you shut your heart of to the other.

He's a human being.
A person, with sadness and love, Human nature, and Buddha Nature like everyone else.

No matter what mistakes he's made, he's not the devil.

In Gassho,

Sara H
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:54 am

Well said, Sara. If this was Facebook, I'd 'like' your post.
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:29 pm

I have only just noticed this but it seems very worthwhile to comment even belatedly.
Sara says:
Quote :
Just because we're not a good fit together, or I disagree with certain choices he has made or tendencies he has, or ways he tends to do things, or recognize that he may have made some Karma, doesn't mean I don't also see that he has a heart, and is not a monster.
Statements like this can be difficult to evaluate. My touchstone is to apply the statement to both Gandhi and Hitler. Mmm... clearly simple to apply with Gandhi, but it seems all wrong with Hitler. He had a heart but was a monster. It seems the test for 'monstership' lies outside of see(ing) the love and Buddha Nature in him. In Hitler's case his actions and behavior were manifestly monstrous, so we call him a monster despite any love or buddha nature he may have had. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to say that Koshin is a monster. I'm in no position to judge. I'm only saying that the criteria are wrong; we judge if someones is a monster by their monstrous actions, or lack of them, not by whether they have love and a buddha nature in them. And unfortunately one persons idea of monstrous behavior and action is another persons forgivable foible. Also often we judge someone purely on our own personal experience of them discounting their wider behavior.
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:44 pm

Mark, I just have to say, another brilliant post.

Well done.

(And I look forward to many more!!)
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:28 am

Sara,
Who here do you think views Koshin as the devil? You also mentioned that you and he are not on speaking terms, but did not say why. You did mention all the good and kind things he did for you and your family. Do your values steer you to say only what is good about a person? Given that Koshin is in the position to do great good and great harm as someone who presents himself as an enlightened master to someone willing to follow him, is it in the best interest of those potential followers to hear only that which is good about him and not hear the potential harm he might do them if they remain unaware or naive? For those of us who feel a sense of obligation to educate potential followers, or who validate the experiences of those who have been hurt, are we vilifying Koshin or Rev Kennett for the sake of vilifying them, or are we trying to have the least harm manifest in a world in which nothing really comes out completely good or bad?

I think these are fair questions for you and others who see what is done on OBCC as vilification to examine and, if you'd like, share with us your conclusions or thoughts in process.
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:50 am

I recommend people on this forum read what I've reposed about Sasaki Roshi - most of which came from sweepingzen and the Sasaki archives. Now we have three very loud and clear recent examples -- Shimano, Maezumi, and Sasaki - of Zen "masters" who were revered for their teaching, ability to lead students, and who had deeply serious ethical and emotional flaws - where much harm was done -- all in the name of Dharma. It continues to fascinate me how people can live in denial for decades, even generations, rationalize, justify, and blind themselves in service to a grand story, mythology, fantasy, belief system. Were / are Maezumi, Sasaki, Shomano - "monsters" -- of course not. We are all mixed bags, but the mixtures can be very different and such "masters" and indeed all kinds of leaders and authority figures are in positions to abuse their authority and power. No new story here.

Some religious leaders are great "on stage" -- give great lectures, have the Zen or spiritual styles down pat, can be dramatic and charismatic, are terrific in their robes, on their thrones, doing the rituals, being the guru, but that is to me mostly theater. Not hard to learn or copy. Behavior in daily life is everything - that's what the Buddha pointed out. When they leave the stage, how do they behave? Not what they say, but what they do?


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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:09 pm

Josh you put your finger on two important points. First we are all mixed bags, part saint, part monster, but all human. And that leads to the second point, when we 'sit at the feet' of a teacher we tend to idolise them. We portray them in our minds as the perfect beings that we both aspire to be and believe we essentially are. We foist on the teacher the burden of our beliefs and expectations, and own 'perfection' and then hide behind this wall of mis-belief. When the now lauded teacher proves to be human we blank this out with denial, or represent it as some kind of special behavior or expedient teaching. And the cat is killed again. We even try to convince the teacher of their own perfection; puffing up their arrogance and self-importance and giving them the perfect screen behind which their faults can grow unnoticed and unchecked. When we finally discover our mistake we can either grow and recognise our own and the teachers frail humanity. Or, because we cannot accept our own intrinsically frail humanity and the consequent death of our idealised idea of perfection, we more often demonise the teacher and heap on them all the faults of the world so that we can in some strange way maintain our idealised view of ourselves and the world. It feels to me rather like growing up but where the child is fixated on the super-hero parents and therefore balked from reaching true maturity. As usual I fear this is a rather inadequate descrition. However the monsters under our beds are only in our minds, as are the gods on our alters.
... gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:21 am

Sara, Jimyo, Henry, Josh, and Mark--well said all!

I think that the issue that we are, and have been, addressing here, from the beginning, is huge!

The crux of the matter, I believe, at root, is the importance of taking back our own spiritual practice from any causal dynamic that entails institutional domination and exploitation.

What say all of you--and everyone else?


Last edited by Kozan on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:48 am; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: A postive thing about the NCBP   Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:33 am

P.S.: Dan, thank you for posting here as well! In my opinion, ALL of our comments are essential!
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