RMJK and choosing a Dharma Heir

First topic message reminder :

:-) This is a straight request for info, so I hope I'm not 'off-thread'...

In the opening page of her account in How to Grow a Lotus Blossom, Reverend Master Jiyu wrote...

Quote :

[Daizui] experiences the first great kenshō...Instead of my former heir who had deserted me and who, although he was close to understanding, had not yet experienced kenshō, I now have a true heir whom I can certify.

I have assumed from this that Reverend Master Jiyu had only one Dharma heir among her disciples shortly before this event, namely the person of whom she wrote above as having "deserted" her and who "had not yet experienced kenshō". In the foreword to the first edition, Daizui described him as "the disciple whom she had regarded as her chief descendent".

I have inferred from entries on the OBCC forum that Daizui was not the first active member of the (then) Reformed Sōtō Zen Church to experience this kenshō. My question is, does anyone know why Reverend Master Jiyu had not already made Dharma heirs of other disciples in the RSZC who had experienced kenshō? In other words perhaps, what was different about the situation of Daizui or her "former heir" that only they were chosen? Or have I got a wrong end of this stick? (-:

:-) I think he was in a Mahayana framework, Isan, but evidently a celibate one.

Many things may lead to deterioration in physical health (was that what you meant, Josh?), a prolonged inner conflict being one of them; and resolution of that particular conflict would likely see an improvement in ones physical health, which seems to be what JK reported in HGLB. (From Daizui's forward to the first edition: "...During the autumn of 1975, Kennett Roshi began to fall ill, suffering from increasing water retention, diabetes, high blood pressure and cardiac irregularity. By April of 1976 she had become too ill to continue with her duties as Abbess of Shasta Abbey..." I seem also to remember hearing Prior Mark, during the spring-summer term at Throssel, express concern that she was unwell and that he wanted to visit her, but perhaps this was unrelated to the autumn development.)

P.S ...CMH, I almost escaped...and then came the credits (-:

Yes a peculiar situation Jiyu ostracized herself from Soto zen in Japan,Kim Seng ostraczsed himself from Jiyu
and then Jiyu starts to ostracize herself from her disciples

:-) Did the name "Reformed Soto Zen Church" reflect departure simply from the administrative/bureaucratic/corporate structure of Soto Zen in Japan, not departure from the doctrinal side or basic spiritual practice? In returning to the West to found the Zen Mission Society, Jiyu Kennett seems to have been following the wishes of Keido Chisan; it was not under a directive from the Soto Zen HQ in Japan, so perhaps founding a clearly different organisation was the only practicable option.

From a Google search, the HQ of Soto Zen in Japan is called Sotoshu Sumucho (Sotoshu = Soto school; Sumucho = ?). According to Wikipedia, Zenshuji is the North American HQ, operating "under the guidance of Sotoshu Sumucho": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenshuji

Present organisation of global Sotoshu Sumucho, from its website global.sotozen-net.or.jp...

According to this website, there are "two Sotoshus in the USA": Zenshuji (mentioned above) is the HQ for Japanese immigrants; the other is the San Francisco Zen Centre (which has several practice centres), founded by Shunryu Suzuki and the American converts/practitioners who gathered around him: http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/temples/outside_jp/a_year_of_temples/sfzc_1.html (I do not know if this distinction means that the SFZC is regarded as subordinate or parallel to Zenshuji.)

You are a super star Anne, In all the universe there is only one Anne,

I cant read the chart...let alone understand it.

My limited understanding is that there is flexability,in that if you want to be a part then be a part of it, if you want to leave then leave. I know that Sotoshu is aware of some problems of Soto zen in the west, and I believe that it is felt that the problems arise when one steps outside the tradition and teaches their version of Zen.

We are free individuals, we can make our own decisions, live our own lives, the problems arise in the case of zen when other people especially vulnerable trusting people, are taken advantage of in the name of Zen. It is very tough as people are loyal and trusting and want to believe in something or someone to make their lives better

:-) You surely don't think I understood that chart, do you? There seem to be lots of departments with lines joining some and not others. CMH, do you think that a Western organisation that began as separate from "Sotoshu Sumucho" could, if it saw benefit, apply to be part of SS?

There is, of course, a Wikipedia article on the San Francisco Zen Centre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Zen_Center) ...but, having read it, I am completely in the dark as to whether or not it is now a discreet body from Sotoshu Sumucho

do you think that a Western organisation that began as separate from "Sotoshu Sumucho" could, if it saw benefit, apply to be part of SS?

Anne I do not know
There seems to me to be a working together, and maybe it is who one knows and what the connections are. I believe that Sotoshu, I think through Eiheiji, supported San Francisco ZC when Shunru Suzuli died, I think the support was available in different ways whilst letting the centre sort things out for themselves. I met a monk in Japan who told me something about it but I am not sure of my facts and would not like to say the wrong thing, so I think the mother temple would help out and support its monks and followers,assuming they are practicing the temple way ,they would not take over but would help if asked.I think this is a good thing as it brings great stability,I know this happens but it depends on the connection,I know also that if it does not seem right support would be limited if at all. Ikko Roshi viited minnisota Zen Centre as they wanted to learn Bendowa from him, I know that as Ikko Roshi showed me the video! It was a nice video because what he showed them was daily life in Eiheiji or Zuoiji. Personally I think that is great support and help, and encourages a feeling, and presence of sanga. It shows friendship and solidarity,For Zen to be passed on needs strong support like this,and I believe something something greater than the individuals themselves

:-) Thank you, Chisan (-:

Anne wrote:

:-) Did the name "Reformed Soto Zen Church" reflect departure simply from the administrative/bureaucratic/corporate structure of Soto Zen in Japan, not departure from the doctrinal side or basic spiritual practice? In returning to the West to found the Zen Mission Society, Jiyu Kennett seems to have been following the wishes of Keido Chisan; it was not under a directive from the Soto Zen HQ in Japan, so perhaps founding a clearly different organisation was the only practicable option.

Based on what JK wrote in WWG and also told us over the years there was intense politics in Sojiji. Although Keido Chisan had asked her to return to the West and teach, once he died the political wind apparently changed direction and she felt the Soto Head Office was unwilling to recognize her. I can remember that she did have some interaction with the Head Office while I was at Shasta Abbey, but of course I only saw this unfold through her eyes. If anyone knows more about this and can offer a different interpretation of events it would be interesting to hear.

Regarding JK's choice of the word "reformed" in the name of the organization I never heard her say anything about it. In particular I never heard her say that what she had been taught in Japan was invalid or inadequate and so she would "reform" it. She did feel it was necessary to gradually separate and remove the Japanese cultural aspects from what she had been taught in order to make Zen Buddhism more accessible to Westerners. Although I did not always agree with her choices - in particular the incorporation of some Christian/RCC elements - over all I felt she moved things in the right direction. For instance it is better IMHO to recite scriptures in one's own language and let go of the magical thinking associated with chanting in an unintelligible language.

I agree with the scriptures, but there should not be an issue, I was given a Soto Shu Sutra book from Soto Shu it is in Japanese and also English .

Personaly to hear Fukanzazengi (zazen rules) chanted in Japanese last thing at night is very beauiful and moving.

I heard the Imans calling at a city very close to Mecca, in a TV documentary,this was the last call of the night it was also very moving and beautiful.

OH what a tangled web,and in just one generation of followers!

I'm glad I didn't have ANY insight into the political background to RMJK's excursion to Japan and back,let alone the very limited and muddled idea I have now!Not for lack of trying and the benefit of you clever well informed people.I just feel like a klutz!

It all leads me to the question "Where does authority come from?"

Go back a few hundred years in any dynasty and it seems you will find underhand shenanigans and all sorts of carry on.

Yet,as has been remarked several times on the site,it seems we humans long for authority figures,and mystification of their claim to position and power.

No-one individual can be the ideal something this longing is directed towards.

Ever heard of The Peter Principle?

I agree with you Isan,RMJK moved things in the right direction.The scriptures in English is really useful and interesting.The attempt ,clumsy though it inevitably is,to create a lay ministry,is again useful and interesting,as it brings in elements of our more protestant culture,and could be seen as empowering.

For myself,I am impatient for the lay sangha associated with OBC to get itself organised.But I'm probably over idealistic about that ambition.

Keep the history lesson going please-I find it fascinating.

Take care



Ikuko

:-) Isan, thank you for the explanation and important reminder about cultural aspects.

Do you recall why, when JK had been through the requisite stages of priestly training, in those days Soto Head Office was (or was inferred as likely to be) unwilling to recognise her--for example, nationality, gender? (-:

Anne wrote:

:-) Do you recall why, when JK had been through the requisite stages of priestly training, in those days Soto Head Office was (or was inferred as likely to be) unwilling to recognise her--for example, nationality, gender? (-:

Having read WWG you know that JK experienced (or perceived) a lot of discrimination due to being a foreigner and a woman training in a temple normally exclusively for men. Keido Chisan provided protection for her by virtue of being Chief Abbot, but after he died she became persona non grata in Sojiji. Those same political forces continued to create obstacles for her after she moved to the US and set up Shasta Abbey. Of course this is all based on what she said over the years and I can't substantiate any of it. Some of the other "old timers" might be able to add more.

This gets more like a best seller by the day 'De Roshi Code' springs to mind!

I also do not know the truth of all of this,Mark I think wrote earlier that WWG was not all fact but fiction,that may be too harsh he might have said fictionalish if there is such a word.

The one thing that runs through this is the trail left behind by Jiyu, The people she knew in UK before she went to Malasia were not too happy with her,and that was an extentsive group of Buddhists,I knew them,I think it was difficult for them to express their feelings as they were trying to keep the Buddhist precepts, however I was surprised,and when I was involved with Jiyu upset by it.

There were these issues in Japan,personally I do not think this was just because she was a woman. There would have been issues being a woman it would have been very difficult , I doubt if she lived in the zendo but maybe she did,this zendo life is important in Japan, and includes washing and bathing naked together,I think that temples building guest areas is something that has happened after her time,where woman can stay in a dignified way. However there were issues, and then issues with kim Seng, and issues with her own followers.

None uf us wanted that in our early days of spiritual search.

:-) I had supposed that the Soto Head Office was apart from the discrimination she encountered; but I can understand that, having experienced it at the temple, she would estimate it also likely at Head Office.

Chisan, I think Mark may have been alluding to the preface of Wild White Goose...

JK wrote:

...This book is published purely for the purpose of showing how Buddhist training was done by me in the Far East. The material for this book has been taken from diaries covering a period of almost eight years spent by me in Far Eastern temples...Please do not become caught up in the apparent "unfairness" of the actions of some of the people around me. What they did must be included here in order that one can see my reactions to it, both wise and unwise; their actions are not published to cause others to become angry and especially they are not published to cause the reader to engage in idle speculation as to people's identities. I have no wish to identify, expose, or embarrass anyone whatsoever.

For this reason, and because I value highly the right to privacy of everyone, I have found it necessary to not only change names and locations, but also years, countries, and, in some instances, the sexes, ages, habits and behavioural traits of characters. Some characters represent a combination of several real people; some real people whom I knew in the East at that time are not represented here at all; some characters have been invented for the sake of reporting certain thoughts which are germane to the teaching. Some teachings discovered later have been reported in conversation form here for the sake of making a more complete book although they did not necessarily take place with the characters I have indicated...I have tried to preserve the integrity of the circumstances and events of my training without causing harm to others.

The result, therefore, is a work of fiction in the respects mentioned above. Events spoken of actually took place, however, and documents, letters, etcetera, mentioned in the text all actually exist in the Archives of Shasta Abbey. Out of the respect for the privacy and rights of others letters have been paraphrased and identifying details deleted or changed, in consultation with legal counsel. In some instances a certain amount of poetic license has been taken in order to give the events a better flow. Conversations are reported as accurately as possible but not necessarily with the characters with whom they originally took place. My opinions, actions and reactions are also recorded here as accurately as possible but many I have since seen to have been imprudent and would not repeat in the light of my present, I hope more mature, state of mind; it is amazing how wrong a person can be with regard to some situations and events...Taking cognisance of the above information, therefore, any resemblance to any person, living or dead, is purely coinincidental...

Thus, while her teacher may not really have been called Hajime, and Reverend Tarō may (or not) have been several people, and Harry may never (or not) have existed, drama has not been added intentionally...unlike in the following case...


I may have no sense of occasion

You're a lucky man, CMH, if no one has had "issues" with you (-:

Anne I have tried clicking your button but nothing happens

:-) The direct link to the non-event is http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/316AzLYfAzw%26autoplay%3d1%26rel%3d0

I hope it is worth it (I'm sorry you bought your popcorn in vain) (-:

Yes High Drama and so good too
By the way on the previous one I said

Anne I have tried clicking your button but nothing happens

it was a joke, i will type slower next time!

:-) Drama-by-subterfuge!!

Are there no depths...?!?...I will leave you to complete this sentence (clue: the last word rhymes with "wink" and has something to do with washing-up) ;-)

and has something to do with washing-up

The words someone else spring to mind

Am I right

...And that rhymes with "wink" exactly how... (Remember to type slo..o..owly for me.)

You must be much loved at your house...

Ah ha I showed the drama to my kids who think you are a good giraffe a bit of English speak for our over there friends

I think we can conclude that:

We were all Dharma heirs,although there was a special of the day.

The history,before any personal confirmation was possible, was not always based on reality.

Kim Seng once was an important figure confirmed by the publication of ordination photos,then after an unsatisfactory visit to Shasta, is not really mentioned again and anyway despite his titles, his temple is now regarded as only a tourist attraction.

The eventual Dharma heir, who certainly was strong in controlling other peoples lives,disappeared whilst on the phone and it's alleged is now found on the East coast advertising oriental massage,

I think I have that right, but when talking to Anne I always come off second best and end up confused.

However on a separate note I was encouraged to read about a steel worker in Downtown Pittsburg,who followed a little known Chinese sect. Years ago when he lived in the small temple, he felt very insulted when he showed the Abbot the emptiness he had discovered in his meditation, The Abbot rebuffed the guy saying he sat with 'unnecessary selfishness' and shouted that he wanted to be shown 'Life'. The guy left feeling rejected and worked for 20 years in a large smelter, he kept his meditation practice going. He felt moved when he befriended a pretty destitute family few years ago and with kindness that he did not realize he had, helped them back on their feet, he then started a small social welfare group for deprived children,the group expanded and became wider spread, forcing him to raise funds, This year he tried to find the old master but only found a well kept grave with "Don't Look Here" etched out of the head stone. On a happier note the guy is well respected by the local people,and they help him raise an increasing amount of money. I have to get back to my life and I'll catch you guys later..Lise you said 38 last year.

chisanmichaelhughes wrote:

Lise you said 38 last year.

I was about to change my birth year in my profile, but probably someone might notice at this point so I can't. These increasingly high numbers are just . . . impolite.

:-) Peace-offering, CMH...

Kids (and others) may like this interactive kaleidoscope...

Bigger version: http://inoyan.narod.ru/kaleidoskop.swf

Off-topic maybe, but I plead extenuating circumstances (-:

If we bought a load of projectors, deprived ourselves of sleep for a few days and sat in a pitch dark room with that image projected onto the walls, ceiling and floor would that be the same as attaining enlightenment?

Great Kaleidoscope Anne..till next time..xx

OH Anne here i am trying to understand what you're all writing about and that kaleidoskop has thrown me ...1st into it ,until i felt sick , then out of it and ,well , and nothing , but it is an amazing response , on it goes just above as i try to concentrate- i think i'm thanking you .

:-) Glad you enjoyed it, Nicky...I hope the nausea has worn off!

The "bigger version", if you use the link, moves a bit slower than it's smaller posted 'offspring'. If you've not tried yet, you can affect both versions by running your cursor over them...but your nausea might come back! (-:

(Note: To use this and other links directly (i.e instead of copying and pasting in the browser), one needs to be logged into the forum.)

Jcbaran wrote:

Some random thoughts.

For a very long time, Chinese Buddhism was a combination of Taoism, Confucianism, folk religion, Chan, Pure Land. There was no "pure" Rinzai or Chan for hundreds of years. Pure Chan may never have existed even way back in the earliest times.

I can corroborate that. I stayed for a while in the Shaolin Temple in Henan, China. One day the guestmaster took me into a Buddha hall on the wall of which were a number of magnificent paintings depicting the various varieties of virtuous family behaviour proposed by Confucius. "You are probably wondering why we have Confucian paintings in a Buddhist temple", he said. I nodded politely, of course. He explained that the links between Buddhism and Confucianism were very deep and complex and difficult for mere foreigners to understand. Then he paused and rubbed his chin.

"Anyway", he said, "they are priceless historical artifacts and we can't figure out how to get them off the wall".

:-) From footnotes in the second edition (pub 2002) of The Wild White Goose, which seem relevant to some points in previous posts...

Editor Daizui MacPillamy wrote:

In the years which have passed since Rōshi Jiyu-Kennett's arrival in America, some of the events recorded in these diaries have taken on a new perspective. It now appears that almost all of the difficulties which she encountered in the Tokyo monastery* were caused by the political machinations of only two of the officers who, it would seem, provided her and others with misleading information on a number of occasions. These two used every letter which came from England and every mistake made by people who came to the Foreign Guest Department to further their anti-foreign cause. Rōshi Jiyu-Kennett did not know this at the time of writing the diary and of leaving Japan. Their actions should not give the reader the impression that the majority of the Japanese priesthood is anti-foreign nor anti-Rōshi Jiyu-Kennett herself, as later events both in Japan and America have proved. The Sōtō Sect authorities provided her with all necessary certification before she came to America and she has remained in good standing up to the time of her death in 1996.

* Not Sojiji, not sure where.

JK wrote:

During this time* I received a certificate asking me to become the official pioneer missionary of the Sōtō Sect in America and a contract for four years to do this from the Head Office. So, in spite of appearances, I became their official representative when going to America and England.

* A few days before leaving Japan.

This has to be prime time TV

The Multi Facetted Zen Koan

A venomous story of intrigue,claim and counter claim,who held up the right flower? and who winked in the wrong way?

Anne wrote:

:-) From footnotes in the second edition (pub 2002) of The Wild White Goose, which seem relevant to some points in previous posts...

Editor Daizui MacPillamy wrote:

In the years which have passed since Rōshi Jiyu-Kennett's arrival in America, some of the events recorded in these diaries have taken on a new perspective. It now appears that almost all of the difficulties which she encountered in the Tokyo monastery* were caused by the political machinations of only two of the officers who, it would seem, provided her and others with misleading information on a number of occasions. These two used every letter which came from England and every mistake made by people who came to the Foreign Guest Department to further their anti-foreign cause. Rōshi Jiyu-Kennett did not know this at the time of writing the diary and of leaving Japan. Their actions should not give the reader the impression that the majority of the Japanese priesthood is anti-foreign nor anti-Rōshi Jiyu-Kennett herself, as later events both in Japan and America have proved. The Sōtō Sect authorities provided her with all necessary certification before she came to America and she has remained in good standing up to the time of her death in 1996.

* Not Sojiji, not sure where.

JK wrote:

During this time* I received a certificate asking me to become the official pioneer missionary of the Sōtō Sect in America and a contract for four years to do this from the Head Office. So, in spite of appearances, I became their official representative when going to America and England.

* A few days before leaving Japan.

My question - how to evaluate the veracity of Kennett's statements in light of what's been shared and corroborated on this forum, from people who were subject to any number of misstatements and falsehoods that Kennett spread about them? I'm thinking of Josh, Gensho, Mark (Daiji), Michael (Chisan), Kyogen and Gyokuko, Henry (Kaizan), Komei, Myozen . . . I don't mean to leave anyone out, I think there are more who have talked about this here.

If Kennett was willing to say things about others that were not true, is it possible she did this in regard to herself as well?

Who has seen the certificate?

:-) The inaccurate representations might not have been deliberate distortion but what JK actually inferred and believed, just as some of ones own ideas may be thus; which doesn’t make these statements any less distressing, startling and risky for the ‘nominee’, or make it any easier to know what to believe of JK’s account.

That so many people have reported them has me wondering if something in a Zen teacher’s role may particularly carry this risk. I am not a parent but wonder if some similarity exists in parental opinings that Junior knows are off the mark but which Ma and Pa sternly hold forth on, believing their utterances to be true and for Junior’s "own good"; or like a Judge passing sentence, for the perceived "good of the community". One may suspect a fair amount of covetousness, animosity, self-dulling, pride, jealousy/competitiveness/ fear of inadequacy, and opinionatedness, combined with illusoryself-grasping conditioning the actions of non-practitioner parents; but of course one would hope for rather more (or perhaps I should say less!) from ones Zen teacher.

One might fall back on explanations of the coarse common-or-garden variety of the above to explain the otherwise apparently inexplicable: and Josh has published on this forum much about the realities of Soto Zen transmission.

I believe that someone who has glimpsed into the emptiness of the ‘person’ imputed upon the skandhas and who has found a safe way to train (i.e having adequate knowledge of the Noble Eightfold Path), would see no true personal psychological gain in actually deliberately falsifying what they report of others, moreover they may have a genuine wish to benefit others, and as they train likelihood reduces (at varying speeds) that their choices are conditioned by illusoryself-grasping and its associated malware. However, even with this insight, aspiration and incremental liberation, their perceptions and choices may be affected by remaining vāsanā and ignorance (lots lots lots of it!) Sound familiar, anyone?

CMH, the certificate may be in Shasta’s "archives" (which get a mention elsewhere in WWG as holding various documents mentioned in the book) but I don’t know what strings one would need to pull to see it or a copy. Then again, it could be on the far side of Mercury or some other place where you will never know if it exists or not. Kozan, I hope you don’t mind my asking: do you think any relevant officer in Shasta would heed a request from you -- that is, only if you have time and inspiration to formulate one? I feel I shouldn't put a smile here in case you think I'm sucking up to you, but now I've explained this I can put one anyway! (-:

I personally do not think the certificate is important, I doubt if Shunru Suzuki had one, I do not think he needed one, as he inspired so many people.

The important aspect is this certificate was claimed to exist to give authority or credence to what was going on.

but it is all strange Myozen said she thought the headquarters did not know kennett had planned to leave Japan. She did leave and start the reformed Soto sect,we were all told nasty stories of Japan then it appears it was only 2 people that were nasty. Daiji told me that when the pevious lives episode was reaching a climax someone asked...'What would Koho Zenji have made of this' and Kennett replied he would not have understood,meaning i think that his understanding was not far advanced,I am sure Daiji will tell me if I have the inference wrong . If all was well as Daizui says why link with the Malayian Sanga and not the existing Soto sect.

I am sure we will all have a different take on this, I am one of those people that enjoys being a part of a sect I like to feel connected in some way. I liked Kennett in the beginning I thought we were part of the Soto sect I did not like the issues, It is quite an important certificate,something like this ought to be on display, Some people must have seen it, It would have to be translated.

:-) I've tended to understand the reply of JK, that Koho Zenji "would not have understood", as being a bit like a 15-year-old's answer to "What would your parents have made of your partying all weekend?", i.e disapproval...or maybe a milder "wouldn't have agreed with it". However, I have only seen it in print.

The letter that was sent out in 76 that discredited Daiji and myself,was apparently written for the greater good,rather from the basis of truth and accuracy. As it seems this certificate has not been seen by anyone, I wonder if the claims made were for the greater good, at the expense of truth and accuracy