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 Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?

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Nicky



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PostSubject: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:21 am

[Admin note: This thread was split from "How To Grow A Lotus Blossom" in OBC Experiences so members could express an opinion about the approval/disapproval feature in the posts. If it is generally felt to be undesirable it can be removed.]

To the admin - mostly ,

Cant find appropriate thread , so ive chosen to go below Josh's green approved posting , as its the green/red business i want to mention .

( though actually Josh your posting does increasingly gives me the
- Jim-Jams- ) Though i wont give a red ............maybe i can say more later , not sure how thouh

I dont like the good bad markings , the bad red can hurt , and the green is good ,approval - top of the class . I'd like us to say what's going even if its yes or no , but at least then we are who we are , and more aware straight forward .
I've used both , and felt a little smug with green , and deeply ashamed when i once used the red , in the' lounge' section, because i was angry and humiliated , would have been so much better to have said something , or left myself to ease off .
i know the red has hurt someone a lot , helped to chase them off even , and it would me .
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Nicky



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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:47 am

OK I'm responding to myself - i think this site does invite slight madness , so :

fi fie fo fum
who's done the green one ?

And , is it for agreeing about good marks - bad marks?
Or The jim-jams ? I seem to be backsliding into 1950's england , dont know how this reads for all you americans .

I have been thinking about josh's quote there must be more to it than that ,must have more context than that . Put out like that its ....where's my intellectual concentration .........Its slightly hysterical , and who who , anyway is the judge of spiritual enlightenment , whatever THAT is . Of course what you're referring to josh is terrible , and hence the jam-jams .
I admire your certainty Josh , and your energy - let alone intellect , but i find i often step back from what you say .
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Ol'ga

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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:07 pm

Nicky,
I so agree with your comments on the 'voting' system. As you say,
fi fie fo fum
who's done the green one ?

And , is it for
agreeing about good marks - bad marks?
Or The jim-jams ?

Since virtually no posts are of the yes/no kind, any 'voting' is meaningless. It is also a 'secret ballot' - why? Someone then can give a pat on the shoulder, or a rap on the knuckles, without showing their face, or making any commitment at all to their views. What's the worst is that it doesn't help the discussion, in my view, but stifles it, or even kills it.
I have never given a red mark, but have given a few green ones, to counter the red ones, mostly. Sometimes I gave a green one, when a clear minority view seemed to be expressed, and I concurred.

I can live without the marks.
I think this is worth a discussion - it's perhaps worth even a vote - explicitely.

As to Josh's post quoting the Chassids - I would also like to read more.
As far as 'spiritual enlightenment' is concerned, Zen - and this forum for the most part - has it on their brains! But all you can ever see is someone else's behaviour. Their understanding is theirs alone - it can be easily faked, or misunderstood. Someone's experience is even more ellusive. Have it, enjoy it, don't flaunt it. If you think it will help someone... - well, will it?

I think we are so different. Just consider how different the kenshos are - compare, say, Bill Picard's and Jimyo's (both valid, I'm sure - and yet how different, thank God). How does either light up someone else's path?

I have a linguist friend, whose specialty is language acquissition. She told me a very interesting thing - when you are memorizing a new word, find your own memory aid. Someone else's doesn't work, it won't stick - everyone has their own associations, their own imagery.

I'm convinced that the Truth (for want of a better word) can be taught - in the sense that someone can point out what has always been there, but was missed - and one can then see it for oneself - for good. Most of you probably disagree. In my own experience, going to Shasta was inspired by reading all I could about Zen - which was, largely, cryptic stories of other people's enlightenment experiences. I now believe that they lead me up the garden path...

Ol'ga
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Isan
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:30 pm

Ol'ga wrote:
?
Since virtually no posts are of the yes/no kind, any 'voting' is meaningless. It is also a 'secret ballot' - why? Someone then can give a pat on the shoulder, or a rap on the knuckles, without showing their face, or making any commitment at all to their views. What's the worst is that it doesn't help the discussion, in my view, but stifles it, or even kills it.

Ol'ga

The voting option is a typical feature in internet forum software. Given the level of discussion we try to have here (well, most of the time) giving a simple thumbs Up or Down to a post seems silly to me. It may be possible to disable this option, but to my knowledge the Admins haven't looked into it since pretty much everyone has managed to ignore it. If it now seems like something worth looking into I would do so if the other Admins concur (Lise, what do you think?)


Last edited by Isan on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lise
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:29 pm

Isan wrote:
The voting option is a typical feature in internet forum software. Given the level of discussion we try to have here (well, most of the time) giving a simple thumbs Up or Down to a post seems silly to me. It may be possible to disable this option, but to my knowledge the Admins haven't looked into it since pretty much everyone has managed to ignore it. If it now seems like something worth looking into I would do so if the other Admins concur (Lise, what do you think?)

hi Isan, and Nicky and all, I have no attachment to the voting feature -- I don't give it any credence or actually notice it. It can be disabled easily.

For those who do like it and find it useful, maybe we need a vote? How about somebody starting a thread where people can make a post and say "aye" or "nay" for keeping it, and we'll tally them up. I'll abstain from voting since I honestly don't care either way.

Anybody else have any thoughts on whether voting is the way to go?

L.
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Lise
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PostSubject: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:03 pm

I will split this thread later today (unless someone beats me to it), to make the topic more visible -

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ddolmar

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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:56 pm

FWIW, I am in favor of disabling the +/- for this forum.

Thanks once again to the admins for their work on our collective behalf.
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Nicky



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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:08 am

Thank you Lise ,
I would like the green /red to go
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Robert
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:25 am

I agree with removing "voting" function. I managed to "vote" red to someone when my computer jammed and then functioned as I clicked the mouse! Although I wrote to the person involved, it was embarassing to have inadvertantly left a red mark next to what was a thoughtful and thought provoking post...
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Kozan
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:25 pm

I, likewise, am in favor of disabling the voting function.
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:19 am

Disable
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mokuan



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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:07 am

disable
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Ol'ga

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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:05 pm

So here I formally also vote in favour of putting it to rest.

The Cosmic Buddha told me that Mark and Howard also vote the same way. If either of them protests, then it was not the Cosmic Buddha...oh shucks! (Hope 'shucks' is not a banned word!)
Ol'ga
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Kozan
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:13 pm

Sorry Ol'ga, I just couldn't resist giving you one last green vote! ;-)
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bellclaire



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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:01 pm

please disable, claire
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Stan Giko

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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:04 pm

Hi, Sorry for not having introduced myself yet.....I hope to remedy that at some
point in the future.
I was just thinking. If the OBC had a site and this question came up, which way
would they vote ? If they voted to disable, What would be the general opinion
of that on this site ?
I can`t quite put my finger on it but, I just feel uneasy about removing the right
to any kind of freedom of expression.......even such small ones.

Having said that, I`m delighted that so many people I knew in the past seem so
well.
My heartfelt best regards to one and all.

Stan Kublicki. ( formerly Houn Giko ).
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john

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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:16 pm

If the OBC disabled + - it would definatly be the controling of natural expression and liberty.
And we all know what they are like.

I have always thought it probably bought a slight competative edge to things, not that there is anything to compete for. But also surprisingly it is being used, and often. So maybe it has its value when something resonates with us and we get that yes moment,like minded helpful or I agree. We could replace it with a star chart that gets taken down at the end of the week,
and take those irritating emotions with them.
As the Cosmic Buddha remains silent, I will abstain.
John.
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Stan Giko

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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:57 pm

Hi John. I like your reply regarding how the OBC would respond although I don`t
subscribe to your conclusion. I`ll try to make sense out of that.

You say that if the OBC disabled, it would definitely be a controlling of natural expression and liberty. However, they have not had such a vote in reality but
have already been judged unfavourably.

You also say that we all know what they`re like. O.K, I agree but, My knowing
what they`re like I suspect is different from your knowing what they`re like !
We`re not all unanimous regarding our opinion of the OBC.

What I do like is that you say, having made your first points, that in the end,
you would abstain from the vote as it were. This suggests to me that you have no feeling of having to force your point of view.

I think I still feel like coming back to having the choice of the + and - option.
If I have a gut feeling on something and can`t quite formulate it, I can also go
for the + - option.

I have always found that it`s easy to get rid off things but hard to get them.
That`s it for me, I would keep the option.

Stan.
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Lamten



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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:54 am

Hi everyone,

I find this option of red and green marks has some value, not in itself (although I can’t help wondering: why is it that someone has so much positive feedback and others, with approximately the same number of posts, has so little) but in the way we relate to it.

Indeed how am I reacting when someone red-mark me? Am I angry, upset or slightly depressed? Am I carried away by all these feelings to the point of not posting for weeks out of spite, despondency or am I replying with anger?, etc.

And if I’m green-marked?... Am I flushed with excitement, elated, carried away by the winds of praise?(...)
“Of course, it's not a big deal and I couldn’t care less, but..., it’s quite nice nonetheless"...

And how do I green/red mark someone? Am I swift to praise or to criticize? Is it the post or the person I mark? How do I feel when I do it? (Am I emotional?)

Does it not revolve around the good old “Fame and blame”?...

As the Old Greeks used to say “Know thyself”… and that’s why I find the marking has value. It allows us to work with these (sometimes very strong) feelings of praise (and being praised) and rejection (and rejecting) with very little consequence and at a very low price. (it’s cheaper that seeing a shrink…). It’s a bargain really.

If that marking is removed, a harmless (and if I am hurt, why am I hurt by what is only a red icon activated by someone I don't know ? Am I beaten to death?) opportunity to work on these feelings (to the condition that I meet them with vigilance and compassion) is let go by. Is it not a shame?

Best wishes to all


PS: And silly me (...) I forgot the a)"I've got a better grade than him or her, what a good boy/girl I am!"... and b) "I've got so low a grade, what a worm!!"...
Feelings of adequacy and inadequacy, pride and self hatred. A shrink would probably have a lot to say about all this.
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:10 pm

I didn't know this function was there, wouldn't have used it anyway, and I couldn't care less one way or the other. Sounds a bit like gold stars at primary school. Come to think of it, I don't think I cared about them either. Or have I musunderstood this whole thread - perfectly possible as I've been skimming.

More importantl....
Stan!!!!! Great to hear from you. How are things? Have you introduced yourself yet? I'll go take a look....
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:41 pm

8 days ago while storm stuck on a whale rubbing beach with a mother bear and her cub, the following just wouldn't have mattered much. Life's so strange!

I like Lamtens postings about the (+/-) question.

The popularity imbalance aspect that Lamten writes about probably means that some posters with a lot of (+) don't provide much challenge to the status quo but this whole issue has deeper implications than a miss perceived public grading system.

When I first came here I thought that having a public, anonymous, thumbs up or down indicator was simply silly. When I later learned just how limited the communication field of emails can be over face to face communications I came to see some value in what ever tools were available to help with this.

Most importantly, I saw a group of people transform a silly (+/-) tool into something useful. The green strip beside a posting became synonymous with a gassho when it's contents particularly connected with another reader. The red strip (which I've never used) simply highlights a posting which has been found challenging and is worthy of deeper consideration.

While the whole (+/-) concept has made me uncomfortable, I have seldom found that true learning has ever had much to do with my comfort. What I think I've mostly seen here is a group of people take what ever is in front of them, that the worldly might elsewhere use as ego props, and transform it into a communicative aid.

The removal of the (+/-) tool makes sense if it turns out we can't handle it but I wonder what that says about us?



Cheers
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Isan
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:28 pm

Howard wrote:
While the whole (+/-) concept has made me uncomfortable, I have seldom found that true learning has ever had much to do with my comfort. What I think I've mostly seen here is a group of people take what ever is in front of them, that the worldly might elsewhere use as ego props, and transform it into a communicative aid.

The removal of the (+/-) tool makes sense if it turns out we can't handle it but I wonder what that says about us?

What would handling Vs not handling it look like? Since it is an anonymous tool and the intent of the voter cannot be known it seems quite meaningless. What is uncommon and remarkable about this forum is most people choose to discard anonymity, post openly and take responsibility for what they say. The "reputation" tool contributes nothing in that regard.
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Howard

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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:10 pm

Hello Isan

What would handling Vs not handling it look like? Since it is an anonymous tool and the intent of the voter cannot be known it seems quite meaningless. What is uncommon and remarkable about this forum is most people choose to discard anonymity, post openly and take responsibility for what they say. The "reputation" tool contributes nothing in that regard.

Yes, I was the one who used the word "handling" which always smells like my last two weeks of kayaking gear. Put another way.

I usually think of this forum as larger than the sum of it's writers.
If this forum is not the place for those who are as yet unable to stand up publicly behind their thoughts, then of course you are correct, the (+/-) doesn't contribute much.

Perhaps it comes down to whether we think it is worthy to leave this tool for those who presently only seem to have this avenue to contribute, even if the whole thing makes us feel uneasy.

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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:45 pm

Lamten wrote:
Indeed how am I reacting when someone red-mark me? Am I angry, upset or
slightly depressed? Am I carried away by all these feelings to the point
of not posting for weeks out of spite, despondency or am I replying
with anger?, etc.


But Lamten never received a red mark. So he cannot have been asking himself these questions. To whom is he then addressing these questions?

I agree with Howard that e-mail communication is very limited by comparision to face-to-face one. I would add that it opens itself to a great possibility of misunderstanding. I can't see how the +/- marking helps in that. It is in fact the poorest communication I can think of. We don't know who is communicating, and we don't know what they mean by the + or -. We don't know to what in the post in question they are refering. Anything that I could express by voting +/- I could communicate a lot better with a post. If my feelings are vague, as Stan Giko suggests, I could simply say, "I can't put my finger on it, but I like/don't like your post."

Howard's suggestion that The red strip (which I've never used) simply highlights a posting which
has been found challenging and is worthy of deeper consideration.
is a nice but, in my view, an unrealistic idea. As an example, I received two negatives on the same post, within a rather painful (to me) exchange. I doubt very much that the negatives where meant as meaning my post was found 'challenging and worthy of deeper consideration'. I have also observed that, in other cases, the marks were almost certainly used as statements of approval/disapproval, particularly the latter. To me at times they appeared as 'communications' from snipers, shooting from behind a bush. Would you not find if odd, that a registered member, who never introduced h'self, never posted a single post, could scatter +'s and -'s to others who perhaps went out on a limb writing on topics that are very dear to them, sacred, maybe even intimate?

I naturally understand that the world will dish out to us what it pleases. One will always be left with the situation as it arises, and will have to cope as best one can. Still, to me this forum is a place of communication, exchanging ideas, support. I, for one, have no ambition to use it so as to 'administer' an impetus for other people's training - in this case, to compel them to work on their emotions or reactions to my negative, anonymous, communications.
And yes, Howard, the +/-'s are such trifles in the great scheme of things. My husband just got a walker which will improve his mobility. That, to me, is a very big event.
Enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:11 pm

I rather aagree with Howard. I think that the +- does add something, not much but something. But I also agree with Olga that somtimes - seems merely like grouching, but by and large I find the whole process 'useful'. However I don't think it's worth keeping if it really upsets people.
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:32 pm

ISAN.

Hi Isan,
" Even should there be a great fire, my heart is always safe and calm and filled
with angels". Very beautiful quote Isan..Thank you. I can feel it churning in my
hara. I can almost hear RM Jiyu say....Not " is always safe" but Was, Is, Will be always safe..... Where is that quote taken from ?


"only 40 years ? "......Those pesky hounds chased me darned fast and hard. It
would have been 40 lives otherwise with my level of complacency ! Even now
they keep me at it. what with the feeding,grooming, walking, playing, they
still keep me on my toes. Just a lot more fun now.

I still reckon you look well in the vids. Colours ? Yes, a bit odd.
Do you still prefer Gibsons to Fenders ? Please don`t say that Zen has whittled you down to telecasters ?

Blessings to you Isan. Thanks again for that quote.

Stan.
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Isan
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:13 pm

Well, we've gotten a little off-topic here, but going back to the original voting issue the clear majority is in favor of disabling the feature. I will turn it off in the next day or so, and post again to confirm. Thanks to everyone for weighing in on this. If there are any remaining thoughts/questions feel free to PM me.
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:33 pm

Isan, and all, I have clicked on some buttons that turned it off, already, my apologies for doing this in advance of any further comments. If anybody is annoyed with this, please contact me instead of Isan, I'm the putz.

thanks,
L
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:51 pm

Now Lise--"Putz" is a yiddish word which, if translated into English, would probably be bounced by the management.



But let's run the experiment to be sure: PENIS!



Moreover, even if we ignore the impediment presented by biology (double-X chromosomes and all), you certainly aren't one of those.
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PostSubject: Re: Should the Option to Approve/Disapprove Posts be Removed?   Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:29 pm

ok, I kinda forgot that's what the word actually means I use it in real life and sure enough it ends up on the forum. I'm busted, Rule #6 I believe it is.

thanks Dan, you're a sweetie
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