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 Occult & supernatural messages / explanations

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Diana



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:06 pm

Jiyu was not the only one to use Crowley and Alan Watt's teachings, Eko used them too. I was told during my "ongoing Fugen kensho," that I was at a critical point where I would be particularly tested by "evil" forces. I was told that I had the karma of a sorcerer and I must have much experience in past lives otherwise I would have never got to where I was. Eko drilled me on what I knew of the occult and asked me if I practised any kind of witchcraft. He asked me if I had ever heard of Alan Watts or Crowley, and at that time I hadn't. This conversation really scared the [banned term] out of me. He had been leading me in directions that I didn't want to go. I was really scared and became rather paranoid. He showed me protective "spells"- invocations and things to do to "protect" myself. However, he was always rather vague enough about things to keep me utterly dependent on him. He also perpetuated a "connection" between us that was very unhealthy and basically destroyed my psychic, spiritual, and physical boundaries. I was very confused. Meditation became a terrifying experience as I would sometimes be fighting for my life.

Of course, the suggestion of Crowley and Watts (esp. Watts since he became a Buddhist monk), caused me to look up information on the net. I only looked once and decided I didn't want anything to do with anything that had been brought up by Eko and dropped it. When I had questions about some of the stuff that was happening to me, I refused to go down the occult-road and refused to talk about it with Eko even though he continually led me that way. After a while, when I was no longer "producing" anything for him, he started to pull away and ignore me. I felt pressured at that point to share things with him, but I became afraid of him after several very bad visions in which I was being raped by him. I did not tell him about the visions but asked if it was possible for him to "invade" my dreams. He said that he could and the look on his face, and the way he said it, still gives me the creeps. The implication of that for me was that he was the evil presence that had been invading me. He was the one that was practicing sorcery on me. He admitted that he had to control his urges or he would harm people, and that this was very difficult to do. In other conversations he alluded to being able to have sexual relations in the dream realm if he wanted to. He claimed that there were many monks who had this power. He also told me that he could have any woman in the sangha that he wanted and even named a woman who at that time had told him she would leave in husband in an instant if he would have her. He would say the power that a monk had could be very seductive and could easily go the wrong way. No [banned term]. He really tried to lead me in directions and had a lot of power over me, but I never had a physical relationship with him. I can say though that I was very much damaged by our "relationship."

There are teachings from Jiyu that centered on the occult and that were passed down. I know Koshin teaches the same kind of things that Eko did. It is these teachings that make everything stray so far from Zen. Has anyone else ever heard of this stuff? Were these teachings only practised by a few people like Eko, or do all the master's do this? This is sorcery. The people that have been harmed by this may only be a handful, but unless you have had to deal with it, I don't think you would have any clue just how terrifying it is. I am lucky that I got out and survived it. It is a very dark energy. I'm not surprised to hear that other members at the Abbey have come close to suicide; I was certainly suicidal at one point, that's when I went off the deep end a bit. Eko is a dark person. I'm glad he's gone, but I worry that he is not the only one in the OBC like this and as long as Koshin is still wearing robes, I don't believe the OBC is getting it at all. As long as Koshin still wears robes, this darkness will be enabled and perpetuated.
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Diana



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:42 pm

To add, it wasn't Alan Watt's that I was thinking of, it was Allan Bennett. Sorry, I had forgotten.
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Laura

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:05 pm

Oh my god Diana. This just gets worse and worse. I had no idea this sort of stuff was going on with you and Eko.

Eko never discussed anything like this with me, but I think it might be because he knew I would have nothing to do with it. I have, however, heard him make references to a sort of higher spiritual knowledge that he believed he had. I remember his telling the whole community that RM Jiyu taught him how to "look" at a person in such a way as to be able to tell whether or not they had ever had a kensho. He apparently "looked" at the head priest of Sojiji on his Japan visit in the early 2000's, and came back to tell the entire Shasta community at tea one night that the head priest at Sojiji had no true understanding. I was completely shocked both by his arrogance and by his professed power to look at a person and discern this. I clearly remember RM Jiyu stating in taped lectures that a person could not tell if a person had a spiritual experience by looking at them.

He also once told me when no one else was present that he couldn't understand why some people were so impressed with a particular person's ability to cause it to rain or produce other natural, weather-related phenomena. He said that he could do the same and that his supernatural powers were not limited to such simple things. And the thing is, he was not speaking metaphorically, about the rain of the Dharma or something like that. It was very clear that he meant it literally. I looked at him as if he were totally insane (which I was actually beginning to wonder about) and he never spoke to me about anything of the sort again.

I did have an experience once where one of his other female chaplain was doing mudras for me while he was present in the room to help. This was done because I had asked him for help with some on-going, very painful physical problems I was having, problems that he believed were spiritually caused. (I subsequently had back surgery to remove a cyst the doctors found which was pressing on my sciatic nerve.) During the mudra, I began to experience some violent, painful physical energy surges through my body and flopped around a bit on the table and I think screamed a couple of times. I had no past life experiences or any visual/aural phenomena accompanying this. He told me that he saw a past life for me during this time that involved my family being killed and me being raped and murdered, and that's why I had such a violent physical reaction to this mudra. I never personally experienced any of that and truthfully never believed him. I considered his comments to be a form of auto-suggestion, but I did not buy into it. He, however, clearly believed that he was gifted with the ability to see people's past lives.

None of my experiences here begin to approach the level of depravity you are describing however. Thank you so much for your courage in coming forward with this. Did you ever talk to any of the other senior monks at Shasta about what was going on during this time, in this kind of detail? This is an extremely important question that speaks to the integrity of the existing leadership at Shasta Abbey. I know that the senior monks always supported him, but this business about spiritually invading your dreams and having sex in the dream world are way over the top. If they supported him in that, I believe the OBC has ample cause for disciplinary action.



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Diana



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:19 pm

I never spoke to any senior monks during this time. I was originally isolated from the rest of the sangha during my first kensho and told I was not ALLOWED to speak to anyone except Meian and Meido. However, Seikai did know what was going on with me in the beginning and he was very kind to me. I always somehow felt like he was a good spiritual friend to me and really felt it when he left. Anyway, I never really did speak to Meian or Meido. When I was really freaked out and vulnerable Meian and Meido travelled to bless my house. I was grateful to them for placing some protection, but still had problems after that.

I was always manipulated, you have to remember this. So I was told it was okay to speak with them, but then was told that only he (Eko) could really understand me. Also, when Eko saw me talking to other monks, at tea or whatever, he acted like a jealous lover. When I started to develop a friendship with Hugh, he freaked out. I admit I did fall in love with Hugh and was reprimanded heavily for that; he told me I would suffer many lifetimes and that the karma for causing a monk to disrobe would destroy me, he told me I should be ashamed of myself. He was so angry with me, I have never seen him like that. It was like being in a cage with a tiger. He would pace back and forth. I felt like I was going to be attacked.

After I was dismissed by him, I contacted Meido and told her some of what had happened. At first she seemed sympathetic, but then she totally shut down and refused to talk about anything. Most of my sangha friends were like this- would just totally shut down. I had no support.

There was always manipulation and threat. The threat to my spirit was more terrifying than the threat to my current life. Dire predictions were made and when bad things happened to me, it was like proof that he was right. After I had my third miscarriage (after I had been dismissed as his disciple) I had a total mental breakdown. I was still heavily under his influence and had terrifying nightmares and panic attacks. When I returned to the Abbey for a ceremony for my miscarriages, Eko refused to do the ceremony or be present for it. When I saw him, he gave me an "I told you so" look and treated me badly. But I was stronger than I thought and started to hang out almost as a challenge to him. I wanted to see if he really did have power over me. Something changed, I believe it was that I knew that nothing could really harm me, including him and I started to grow stronger. I remember you (Laura) were getting ready to leave around this time. You seemed stronger too. I believe that a good force had started taking him over around that time. I know that other forces stepped in to take Eko away. It was difficult to see all my sangha friends so miserable. It was so obvious that he had grown insane. It really is sad.

Peace,
Diana
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chisanmichaelhughes

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:32 pm

Laura
so Eko said the head Priest at Sojiji had no real understanding and all this nasty stuff you and Diana talk of.This is not the true Buddhist way.
I am quite surprised at what you say,I am not an expert at all in what you say,but it seems a continuation of why Daiji left, wrong way zen goes the wrong way.
please keep writing about it every bit,unless you do not want to,it may be quite good to to release it,get it off your chest.
I am writing this and shaking my head at the same time it is prepostourous (hope that is spelt right)
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Anne

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PostSubject: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:44 pm

:-) Hello again, Diana

You wrote of Eko
Quote :
I became afraid of him after several very bad visions in which I was being raped by him. I did not tell him about the visions but asked if it was possible for him to "invade" my dreams.
Were you asleep at the time of the visions? If you were awake, did you sense a "presence", carrying out the rape as it were?

"Incubus" is a term sometimes applied to a male agent in such an encounter.
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jack



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:24 pm

Diana,

Really appalling stuff, particularly for Zen Buddhism.

Whatever Eko's claim of super spiritual discernment was, the experience underscores a profound and willful spiritual blindness on the part of other senior monks, who until just recently actively supported and enabled him. No one at Shasta except those being abused had any idea that Eko was doing mischief and harm??? Really quite unbelievable.

It is very hard and painful to come to grips with the fact that another's psychological power over us comes from our own mind, our own beliefs. That those "beliefs" can actually physically kill us sometimes is not a myth. One key freedom that Buddhism (even Zen Buddhism) offers is the freedom that comes from no longer being controlled or harmed by our own beliefs. (This isn't Buddhist theory for me. It's one of the Buddhist things I now know [at least somewhat] for myself.)

I'm quite glad you survived the ordeal and that you've found your way to safety.
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Diana



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:37 pm

Hi Jack,

It is amazing what comes from our own beliefs and from our own mind. Absolutely. But even when we are "brainwashed" the conflict between what has so-called power over us and our true selves is a major battle ground. It takes years for this battle to end and a lot of understanding that can only come from courage, compassion, and wisdom. Your post does have a touch of "blaming the victim" though, Jack. I don't suppose you would be sensitive to this, but it wasn't just my beliefs that caused Eko to have power over me. There is an inherent power-differential that occurs when one person is a "teacher" and the other a "student." The student is always vulnerable in this case. I was vulnerable. This should be another point when counseling someone who is looking for a teacher- a point of warning. Someone like you might not have to worry about this kind of thing, but for someone who is vulnerable, it is very difficult. Not everyone has problems like I did, and thank goodness for that, but there are harmful people everywhere, even in monasteries and everyone should be mindful of that.
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Anne

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:42 pm

Diana wrote:
Hi Anne:-)

I had both experiences, but the one that was the most intense occured during meditation in the ceremony hall while on retreat. The vision was very elaborate and I can recall every detail:

Everyone at the Abbey was running around and screaming. I was meditating in the ceremony hall alone. Someone came in and grabbed me. He held a gun to my head and dragged me outside. There were masked men with guns chasing and gathering everyone up outside where we usually had tea. It was warm and sunny. Some monks and lay people were being held hostage by men with guns at there heads. There was a gathering of masked men in the middle of everything. I could tell that the man in charge was directing everyone. It was strange though, that some of the masked men were also wearing robes or the brown "Abbey" work clothes.

I was dragged into the middle of the circle of masked men. They held me down. I was looking up at the sun and the leader was backlit by the sun and I couldn't see his face. But then he spoke and I knew who it was. He told me that this was for my own good and that I deserved to be punished. He voice was sweet and soft. I told him that no matter what he did, that I refused to hate and that I forgave him. He was enraged and raped me.

Back in the meditation hall, the bell rang. I had felt this was all happening real-time and was surprised to be sitting back in the meditation hall. I was wondering how I got back there and why everyone was acting like nothing had happened. I started to move from my seat, but became aware of a dark figure standing behind me that was holiodng me down and keeping me from moving. I couldn't move and I couldn't speak. I was shaking and I started to cry. Everybody got up and left. I was just sitting there, for a long time. Nobody bothered me, it was weird. Finally, an Abbey cat came in a curled up on my lap. The figure was gone. I was still scared, but I finally got up and got out of the ceremony hall. I was so grateful to that cat. That dark figure showed up after that instance too and starting following me from house to house over the years. The last time I saw it was in Mt. Shasta before I left, about three years ago now. Certainly felt like an "incubus" from what I know of them, anyway.

The fact that Eko claimed to have been able to enter dreams and visions had a very negative effect on my meditation practice and ability to sleep. In Sanzen, he would act as if he had information about me- as if from some higher authority and when I wouldn't "fess up" to anything he would say I was acting like a child and that I needed to be pure and transparent or our relationship would never work. I was confused, I didn't know what he wanted from me half the time.

chisanmichaelhughes wrote:
Absolutely appalling

I guess this post should come after Diana's answer on the Spear of Destiny thread confused

Diana, thanks...

I don't want to drag this out into psychobabble for you but did the masked men vision seem like a symbolic portent of how you felt things were going?
Quote :
Everyone at the Abbey was running around and screaming. I was meditating in the ceremony hall alone. Someone came in and grabbed me. He held a gun to my head and dragged me outside. There were masked men with guns chasing and gathering everyone up outside where we usually had tea. It was warm and sunny. Some monks and lay people were being held hostage by men with guns at there heads. There was a gathering of masked men in the middle of everything. I could tell that the man in charge was directing everyone. It was strange though, that some of the masked men were also wearing robes or the brown "Abbey" work clothes.

I was dragged into the middle of the circle of masked men. They held me down. I was looking up at the sun and the leader was backlit by the sun and I couldn't see his face. But then he spoke and I knew who it was. He told me that this was for my own good and that I deserved to be punished. He voice was sweet and soft. I told him that no matter what he did, that I refused to hate and that I forgave him. He was enraged and raped me.

I am glad the shadowy figure has not been troubling you lately.

Sometimes these things can be very difficult to unravel...

:-) All the best


Last edited by Lise on Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:48 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : trying to group posts in order)
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chisanmichaelhughes

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:54 pm

Lise I want my last message to stand onthe other thread before we cahanged where I said


I am so mad
speak up girls
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Diana



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:59 pm

Anne,

This particular vision came out of nowhere. I guess a good assessment would be- it came from my subconcious maybe?

There are so many things that can not be explained.

People want facts and first-hand accounts and so some people have reported those here. It is always interesting though, to hear others critiques of what we have experienced. For example, Josh's story of "The Three Dimes." That story is such a clear example of the harmful teaching style of Jiyu that was obviously meant as a threat to Josh. But interestingly enough, some people didn't hear that as threatening at all, some even argued it was meant in good spirit. So what I am saying is, that it is difficult to report how someone harmed you and have that impact be felt by someone who was not there. It is also interesting to hear all the accounts of suicide, or suicidality, or depression, etc... exhibited by people in the OBC and by people who trained with Eko. There does exist a teaching style that is harmful. Some people are aware of it and some aren't. One of the troublesome parts of that is, aren't we supposed to be working toward some level of honesty and awareness in our spiritual lives? How can we trust teachers that aren't even aware that they or their collegeagues are causing so much harm?

~Diana
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jack



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:30 pm

Diana wrote:
Your post does have a touch of "blaming the victim" though, Jack. I don't suppose you would be sensitive to this, but it wasn't just my beliefs that caused Eko to have power over me. There is an inherent power-differential that occurs when one person is a "teacher" and the other a "student." The student is always vulnerable in this case. I was vulnerable.

No blaming of the victim intended. I'm sorry if it came across that way to you.

The power differential is real, and it seems doubly reprehensible that some supposed spiritual benefactor would seize upon it and take advantage of it to another's harm.. When someone else is vulnerable, a honest friend or benefactor watches out for that other being with special care.

In a quite different situation at a much younger age in a different religion, I experienced the power differential as not only a psychological but physical fact. I survived to find at university (at my own expense and initiative) the sheer joy of thinking freely without sanction or reprisal.
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glorfindel

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:29 pm

Thankyou to both Diana and Laura for this directly expressed data.

It is the first posting I have read that, to me, truly expresses how out of control things have sometimes become. It is ironic that my friends who are involved with Crowley and who report similar trippy experiences, seem to be far more respectful, and careful with the effects they have on others.

Every buddhist group I've been into seems to have led to this kind of tripped out stuff. But, yea, the guy who is steering the bleedin' ship better know where he/she is taking it...........and they better be careful.


EDIT: Just wanted to add that I'm with you on that one Jack (ref. your last post). One power differential that I'm very aware of at the mo is that between father and tiny daughter. Sometimes I don't want to do anything in case it has an effect! That's the way I would wish a spiritual teacher to be: loving and CAREFUL.
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Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:19 pm

Laura and Diana,

The ability to enter dreams does not have to be a bad thing--it is like everything else. I know that phenomena has happened to me a number of times where I would be in a dream with another person who later verified having the exact same dream seen from a different reference point, with me in it. But I never tried to do this. When it happened it happened--nothing more nothing less. I also experienced dreams about intimate details of others' lives, but would just inquire if they were interested in knowing and if they were I would talk to them about it. If there is honesty and no effort to have power over the other person, these things may be helpful, or at least not harmful. Like everything else it can be a good or bad thing depending on the if a person uses it to have power over others or makes a big deal about it as if it were important. These things happened to me for some time, then interestingly stopped when I became ill. Now they occur rarely. My life seems no less meaningful for their absence.

To me, Eko's personality reeked of the desire for power. It exuded from him like a stench. As I've said before, that Rev. Kennett chose him as her successor freaked me out beyond measure. Next to her own propensity to humiliate others (in the name of the Dharma) her choice of Eko as her successor was what most made me distrustful of remaining in the OBC.

I can only imagine the dark pursuit of power that Eko must have embarked on once Rev. Kennett and Daizui were dead. I sincerely doubt he had the powers he claimed. Just like someone else said he claimed to be in spiritual bliss of more than 100 orgasms 24/7. Pure absolute bull. The power invested in him by the whole of the monastery and OBC, plus his own grandiose view of himself, plus the helplessness one feels in an enviroment like the OBC where you get no support for your accurate perceptions, plus his dark desire to lord his power over you that emanates from his sneer like leaking sewage, all adds up to an illusion that he is far more powerful than he is. The fact is is that he was just given way too much power which he was totally unequipped to handle. I hope you have banished him from your dreams and psyche like the puff of smoke his illusion of power is.

Perhaps many will read this thinking I am bitter and vengeful. I don't think I am. But I know the suffering he tried to inflict on me when I was terribly ill and feeling very helpless. I know that sneer and the pleasure he appeared to get from being on top. All the while being so very pious. I write this to you Diana and Laura, in case there is some vestige of the stench of his desire for power in your life--he is no one to be concerned with. Without the props of the OBC, without Rev. Kennett's seal of approval, without the vulnerability we bring to those we trust, he has no power at all to affect you.

I hope I don't sound patronizing. If I do, please accept my apologies. But that Eko was named abbot of Shasta was a crime that disgusts me to this day (reading of what has happened these past years). Again, if the OBC tries to clean up "Eko's" mess, they are deluding themselves beyond measure. As you so amply pointed out, there were many monks who you trusted and considered your friends who shunned you with just one word from Eko, a small man. They made him powerful. If they don't look at themselves as the source of the problem they delude themselves. If they don't look at the environment in which they've lived for decades that molded the mindset that created the choices they made, they delude themselves. If they don't look at the architect of the environment in which they lived for decades, they delude themselves.

I am so sorry for what happened to you, and thank you so much for enlightening me further.


Last edited by Kaizan on Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Diana



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:19 pm

Hi Kaizan,

You don't sound patronizing to me. Thanks for your post:-)

There is grief and loss still here with me when I think about the 5 years I spent training with Eko, and the 5 years after that when my life was such a mess. I feel for all of Eko's disciples because he was our teacher and we trusted him. There are so many feelings surrounding that. I'm sure you know what I am saying as you were a disciple of Jiyu. There is a conflict there, like a child dealing with an abusive parent- you love 'em and you hate 'em at the same time. I guess I'm saying this because people out there reading this stuff tend to (I think this is true, anyway) believe we (the ex-members/ex-monks) are just being bitter or critical or...? There is a lot of experience here and a lot of emotions associated with them. I believe that it is with great pain and regret that some of us post what we do and we do not do it lightly.

I'm sorry you were harmed by Jiyu and Eko, Kaizan. And I'm glad that you learned so much from it and continue to share with us.

Peace,
Diana
PS: I understand what you were saying in one of your earlier posts now about the connection between Eko and Jiyu. I'm sorry, but I didn't get what you were saying at the time. I agree that one cannot look at what happened with Eko and not directly relate it to how Jiyu taught and her legacy.
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Diana



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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:25 pm

I also want to say that I am not the author of this thread; it was started by Lise as she decided to split it off of Josh's thread and make it separate. My post was in response to Josh's thread regarding the "Sword of Destiny" and Jiyu's occult tendencies. I would not have brought this stuff up separately or shared without reference to something else.


Last edited by Diana on Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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glorfindel

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:43 am

Hi Diana, I have some questions concerning your very honest post. I'm assuming that, because this is a public forum, it's ok to put your words under some scrutiny. The questions could be percieved as insensitive so please just ignore me if you want to.

One thing that we should all be clear about is that, as far as the revealed data shows, no actual physical rape occurred. That was just a dream. We wouldn't want to subconsciously include the events of a dream in the catalogue of a persons real behaviours.

Eko's contentious behaviours are all based on things he said. Words. I have a few questions concerning the words he said.

Concerning the implied accusation of you being involved in sorcery: Was this accusation founded on any other information. For example had you previously mentioned any visions or “past life” experiences that might have led him to believe you have some such connection? Or was he really just pulling that out of his rear end in order to get you thinking in that way.

Concerning Eko's discussion of the occult: Was Eko mentioning the occult as something that should be indulged in, or to demonstrate what should be avoided? You mention that he was suggesting that deep meditation unlocks all sorts of potential powers (ability to seduce, ability to implant thoughts, etc), and that he, as well as others, had access to them. But was he saying this in order to warn of how those powers should not be abused, or was he suggesting that indulgence in them was the norm and a good idea?

Concerning Eko the stud: Was his proclaimed ability to swoop married women from their husbands, and his struggle with this, discussed just to show the kind of issues and temptations that must be dealt with by someone in a position as spiritual leader, or was he really bigging himself up to inspire an awe reaction in yourself?

Again, I'm sorry if this is insensitive and please ignore this if you wish. I just feel that clarification on those points could remove any doubt that people may have concerning what was going on. The way it has been expressed so far is that the abbot was consciously setting up a paradigm for his students, allowing him to control the way they experienced things. It seems likely. But those are the questions that occurred to me.

Clearly the abbot crossed a forbidden fence at some point. What I'm trying to glean is whether that fence had long ago been ripped down, or whether, after a long struggle it was crossed, soon after which he entered everyday society where that particular fence doesn't exist.

IF it had been ripped down then I would be led to wonder when that took place: during Eko's time, or during Kennet's time. This might help establish whether the practice was a personal thing or whether it was prevalent in the institution as a whole.

I, personally, have not yet seen a post that convinces me absolutely that it was during Kennet's time. That is not to say I do not think it was. I withhold judgement.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:43 am

Laura looking at someone and seeing if they have had a kensho is like looking at someone and seeing that they have fallen in love. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't, and sometimes your just plain wrong! No big deal and like love you don't have to have had one to recognise it, though it helps. Actually the symptoms have some similarity. Can you describe what is you see when someone's in love - I can't. Can you teach it - what for? The old masters used to say about someone who had a recent kensho that they had the awful stink of enlightenment and they should get rid of it before fell into being holy.

Glorfindel please tread lightly we don't want to cause harm. People in Diana's state are often very vulnerable and full of self-doubt. To me there seems to be plenty of corroboration of Eko's behaviour in the testimony of others. Not the same story but all centred round power, control and delusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:21 pm

mstrathern wrote:


Glorfindel please tread lightly we don't want to cause harm. People in Diana's state are often very vulnerable and full of self-doubt. To me there seems to be plenty of corroboration of Eko's behaviour in the testimony of others. Not the same story but all centred round power, control and delusion.

I hear you. Apologies to Diana if the post was upsetting and full approval to Lise if she decides to remove it as inappropriate.

I wont remove it myself however as I believe that some of what is deemed certain evidence on this forum is often a misty swathe of visions, dreams, feelings, personal impressions and group collusion. I do really think that there is bad stuff below the surface but I want to make sure that it is isolated from that confusion.

We should remember that this is a public forum where posts are open to analysis and not egg people on with words like:

"I am so mad
speak up girls"


Ok, I'm out of here for a while. Diana, ignore me, I'm cold. Lise remove these posts if you like.

Toodle pips gang

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:48 pm

Hi Glorfindel, no need to remove the post but thanks for asking. I felt you raised valid points and I appreciate you re-stating (not that Diana was unclear) the fact that it was a dream/vision experience rather than an actual assault. Some readers who do a fast skim of material might not pick up the relevant facts.

This gives me a chance to say that we do have to be careful with what is posted, as the forum wasn't intended to host graphic material that may get us (me) into hot water with defamation, libel, etc. I'm not saying Diana's post is a problem; as yet I don't know. I have asked our solicitor and a "web content advisor" for their guidance. When I hear back I will clarify.

I agree that stories posted on public forums are subject to challenge in their entirety. One hopes that will be done with sensitivity (and I think you did), but this is not a setting that requires group acceptance / validation. There are private forums with those ground rules, where people might expect more cotton-wool treatment, but OBC Connect is not one of them. Fact-finding and getting to the bottom of things is what we're after.

L.

Edited to add, I didn't see anything wrong with Chisan's post.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:59 pm

To Diana

I agree whole heartedly. This is more difficult for me than it might appear. I don't like criticizing Rev. Kennett or Eko. If I didn't feel it could help the monks of the OBC come to grips with things put off to long, or help people recovering from the abuse, or help people thinking of entering the OBC have a fuller picture, believe me, I would much rather be relaxing with my very patient and understanding wife.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:22 pm

Hey Glorfindel,

No apologies necessary. I don't mind your questions at all, I'm just not sure how to answer them!

Some people on the forum have stated that at some point, they got the message to RUN and get the hell out. Well, that is a process that occurs over time sometimes subtly, sometimes not. There are many ways to interpret the vision that I had. Of course no actual rape or physical thing of any kind ever happened between me and Eko. The vision, however, could be interpreted in the following way: my inner being was telling me that my relationship with Eko was harmful and that I should look deeply at this. That could go a step further and I could say that beacause I was being spiritually abused, that it was a form of spiritual rape. It could go on and on depending on your belief system.

I started to type answers to you questions, but deleted it! It is too difficult to clearly summarize 5-10 years of knowing and training into one post. I guess all I can say right now is that at some point a teacher has to teach. What is taught depends on the student. A good teacher will read the student and know when he/she is ready for what and will know how not to do harm. A bad teacher will just [banned term] all that up! A good teacher will not brag that he could have any woman that he wants or can travel into your dreams, etc...

I've got to go eat dinner, but I'll be thinking about how to better answer your questions.

Cheers and no worries,
Diana
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:39 pm

I do think that Kennett did have a strong undercurrent of occult thinking that would occasionally come out - and clearly she passed this down to her minions. To me, most occult stuff is just more illusions and beliefs. In small ingrown and isolated communities, a lot of strange thoughts and and fantasies can take hold. And when you add in the obsession to be powerful, the need for power over others and control over others -- and the delusion of the grand perfect master who should be all seeing and all knowing and supernaturally powerful, you have a strange mud puddle. Grandiosity is so boring........

I doubt if Eko could do anything extraordinary except fool himself, delude himself -- and well, he could delude others but only if YOU buy into these thoughts. I can assure you he could not delude me, he could not invade my dreams. And why would he want to invade other people's dreams? Why would any sane person want to do that?

Part of this is the flight from the present moment, from the Dharma that is just here and now -- the delusion that you must be special, bigger than life. What a waste of time and energy.

When I was doing SORTING IT OUT, I was pissing off many gurus, really annoying some especially Rajneesh, Muktananda, Da Free John, John Roger, Zen Master Rama and well, dozens of others. They heard that I was helping and supporting their former members. My friends strongly suggested I hire body guards, but I didn't want to do that. And many leave-takers were seriously afraid that these all powerful masters could curse me and harm me and even kill me from a distance -- with their supernatural abilities. These former members were just getting out of these cults and still believed the myths they had been taught. They were still "brainwashed." They only power these gurus have is the power that their followers give them. Take back your adulthood, your integrity, take back your common sense, and guess what, they are powerless.

Silly me, I wasn't worried. I do not believe that anyone can kill me with their minds or curse me or invade my dreams or make me sick. When these former members shared their fears, I giggled. I said, "Kill me if you can." I then questioned the beliefs -- so, this person is a God-man, the incarnation of the divine, and his divine expression is vengeance??? His holy behavior is rage? Does that make any sense at all? Did the Buddha kill people with his mind???
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:59 pm

Question for you Josh,
Do you believe that you could be manipulated and influenced to the point of believing that someone can invade your dreams or make you sick? Hypnosis and trance work does influence people, not everyone, but some.

I saw a client the other day who really believed that he had been cursed by a witch and coming from his culture, this was perfectly normal.

I don't know if I ever fully believed Eko could do anything to me, but I went back to find out and what I found out was that he didn't have any power at all, at least not over me. But it was very obvious that he did have power over many others. I felt for those folks because I had felt that way for a while. It's such a go-nowhere place; a kind of limbo. Actually, it's closer to hell because you tend to spiral down, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:03 am

Ok, I remembered an odd story from Shasta that points out Kennett's involvement in occult thinking.

This was probably sometime in the early 70s. There was a couple that had come to Shasta for a weekend retreat - I think they brought another couple with them or some friends. Seemed like lovely people, smart, sophisticated. Since I was the guestmaster, I interacted with all the visitors and retreatants.

The man was probably in his 60s and had studied different religious traditions and other forms of meditation and had been involved with the Gurdjieff / Fourth Way system years before. Kennett met them and seemed to like them. The couple invited Kennett to stay at their home - I think they lived somewhere in the bay area -- and I remember that on one journey southward, we did stay with them. They had a very lovely home and treated Kennett with great respect.

I think they may have visited Shasta a few more times - and then for a reason that I can't recall or maybe was never told, Kennett decided that this couple was somehow evil or demonic, dangerous. She would occasionally talk about them in sinister tones.

One day, as i was accompanying her on her morning walk around the grounds, I
casually mentioned a dream from the previous night. Nothing terribly sinister, but a little odd dream. Not even sure why I brought it up.....

Kennett suddenly stopped and pronounced with great drama that this couple was psychically attacking me. This was not just a dream. They were attacking my mind from afar. I was in great danger, she said. I had to protect myself and block this attack.

I was, well, flabbergast. The whole thing sounded nuts. It was a minor dream, i didn't feel like i was under attack and furthermore, i did not believe that it was even possible to do this. And this couple? Why were they doing something evil? Why?

Kennett then said that perhaps the couple had secretly hidden something in my room - that was helping to conduct this evil energy. I should go up to my room and make a search to see if I could find anything. It could be maybe some of their hair or some little token or talisman. Something like that. The whole thing sounded like the film The Exorcist. Kennett loved the television soap opera called DARK SHADOWS. Maybe she had watched too much of this show?

Well, I found nothing weird in my room - no voodoo dolls -- and no special dreams followed.

A few weeks later, the couple called and wanted to come by for tea and meditation. Kennett heard and said I was to forbid them to enter the gate and not talk to them, just send them away immediately - and not explain. Just send them away and make sure they never return. This was before the era of cell phones so I couldn't call them to make some excuse. And when they showed up, I followed Kennett's fearful instructions, sent them away. They were so perplexed. They could not fathom why I was behaving this way, so cold, so abrupt.

I felt awful -- NOT because i was under any kind of occult psychic attack - but because there was no need to treat people this way.

I felt like i was some puppet in Kennett's shadow play. and i didn't like it.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:15 am

Diana -- in terms of belief, when we believe our thoughts, they do affect our lives, our health, our reactions. So, of course, a person can believe he is cursed by a witch. It is all about belief. Of course, many cultures have all kinds of folk beliefs and stories. Some beneficial, some harmful.

First, no one can manipulate you -- unless you participate. How could they? I told the story above. Kennett did not force me to be mean to this couple. She told me to do it AND I did it. I could have said NO, I WILL NOT DO THAT. Now, if I did that there would have been consequences. But Kennett did not force me to behave in that way. Now, because of the Shasta game, mud puddle that she created, if I said NO, i would have been banished from her presence, there would have been major negative drama, and it could have even meant I would have to leave the Abbey. OK, but i could have been true to myself. So really, in these cases, she did not manipulate my mind -- I did that to me. I went along with her game and story. Until I didn't and left.

Yes, Shasta was quite cultic, but you can always walk out - even in the middle of the night - yes, it might be really tough -- but no one forces you to stay.

Reiterating what i posted earlier, the only power Eko has is the power that you or others at Shasta gave him. The minute you stand up and take it back, he is smoke and dust. He has no supernatural power. And why would he want such a thing anyway????

The more i hear about what went on the last decade at Shasta, the more I think -- where was the Zen?????? What kind of mud puddle was this????


Last edited by Jcbaran on Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:20 am

Jcbaran wrote:

One day, as i was accompanying her on her morning walk around the grounds, I
casually mentioned a dream from the previous night. Nothing terribly sinister, but a little odd dream. Not even sure why I brought it up.....

Kennett suddenly stopped and pronounced with great drama that this couple was psychically attacking me. This was not just a dream. They were attacking my mind from afar. I was in great danger, she said. I had to protect myself and block this attack.

Kennett then said that perhaps the couple had secretly hidden something in my room - that was helping to conduct this evil energy. I should go up to my room and make a search to see if I could find anything. It could be maybe some of their hair or some little token or talisman. Something like that. The whole thing sounded like the film The Exorcist. Kennett loved the television soap opera called DARK SHADOWS. Maybe she had watched too much of this show?

RMJK tended toward the theatrical and had a real problem with exaggeration. Is it possible, regarding just the part I quoted above, that she was pulling your leg and being annoying as opposed to actually believing what she was telling you?

As to why she had the couple turned away who knows, but behaving that way without explanation set a really bad precedent over the years - it set the stage for others to act out.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:55 am

Josh,
I have to disagree with your statement "no on can manipulate you." There is such a thing as thought reform. There is also psychological manipulation, coercive persuasion, hypnosis, suggestion, and influence. These things are used to manipulate others. There is a victim in this equation as there is someone using manipulation to harm another. If you say there is no manipulation, you are saying that there is no manipulator and therefore you are blaming the victim. Most of the time, there is a point when the victim realizes that he/she has been duped. And this is a very painful occasion for some. Maybe at that time the victim realizes that he/she can no longer be harmed, but it can take a while to get there. And some don't make it. And some die- suicide or homocide. I heard a story of one group this summer who had murdered people. Even though we are not talking about extremes with this group (OBC), we can't forget that some ex-members and second-generation cult members have been the victims in some very extreme forms of brainwashing or thought reform.

~Diana
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:56 am

Isan --
she was pulling my leg? I think the simplest explanation is the most likely. She believed this and acted on it and treated some apparently sincere people meanly - or had me do it. Her interest in the occult was expressed many times over the years in many ways, so that part is not that surprising.

It is a very odd situation - here - because every story that anyone might tell about Kennett - could also be re-interpreted as some esoteric Zen teaching or mirroring. With the end conclusion that we just misunderstood something more profound. That explanation doesn't work when you stop believing the collective story.

Now, OK - let's imagine Kennett's outburst and demands were all some act, some manipulation. She was trying to teach me something? So it was all some esoteric game, theater? To what end? To increase fear and paranoia?

Were we all just puppets or dolls in her doll house? I guess that was oddly possible, but actually this explanation is probably far worse. Why do any of this? Well, she would be doing this if she felt that she had such supernatural sight that by creating various stressful scenarios for her students, these actions would somehow enlighten them.

But I tend to end up with the simple explanation. Especially as her behavior became more abusive and irrational, it was as it appeared to be. When she was angry, there was anger. When she appeared to be jealous or insecure, that's what was going on.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:18 am

I think here Josh that it it is a case of being too close to see clearlry,a lot of what you say is about that,being fooled by teachers we give them a raised platform and off it starts,It is interestin you mention Sung Sahn i think on the other post,I met him, the first thing he said to me when I was introduced, was how many students you got. I said I did not have any,it was a what we call a conversation stopper, I did not know what you said about him it reminds me of our friend mr Robert Soul
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:25 am

I remember in the 80s there was a very pretty young lay woman who came to the abbey. She also appeared to be a very friendly and nice person. She had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Rev. Kennett came up with similar statements about her as with the couple Josh mentioned. She was a witch or had witch karma, she shouldn't be allowed back in the monastery, etc. etc. Of course we all obeyed without question.

To those who have said, "Well I disagreed with Rev. Kennett and she was fine with it." Yes on some things. What if one of us said, "I won't throw this person out of the monastery. She is a person with a mental illness asking for help. Even if she has "witch karma" aren't we here to help people clean up their karma?" I'll tell you what would have happened. You would have been put on notice, and the life you lived for 10 or 20 years would be at risk of being lost. You could not follow your own ethics and values in these situations. Not in my experience anyway.

How is this different from Laura being shunned for questioning Eko? It is the same phenomena passed on to the next generation. The leader comes up with crazy perceptions and demands and all the well trained acolytes obey without question.

When I was forced to take a bus to physical therapy, which the therapist told me was crazy and cruel, no one offered to drive me, because Rev. Kennett told them not to.

Seems this is alive and well and present day Shasta. The mindset of obedience and not questioning is the key issue. This was started by Rev. Kennett and she deliberately passed the torch to the very person who she knew would continue to implement a way that perpetuated a culture of not questioning. Eko is no accident. He was chosen and groomed to do what he did. Of course he was not supposed to have sex. He goofed up there. Then there is something definitive to point to. The underlying real problem of not questioning and obedience, of course was fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:48 am

you know keizan I feel for you, i read an earlier article just know,when you say you have an understanding wife. good for you to. In the earlier article you said about how difficut is is for you to be critical of kennett and Eko.
I think we are mostly all nodding our heads, as we perhaps hoped and believed, and put someone on a pedestal. It is very difficult to adjust ones thoughts and beliefs, there are a lot of strange emotions to cope with,almost like a marriage or relationship gone wrong, the feelings of betrayal, and all sorts of negative feelings. I think you look clearly at what is being said and make your own mind up and look carefully.
If you do not mind me saying I hope life is good for you,and I hope you take care of yourself
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:03 am

chisanmichaelhughes wrote:

I think we are mostly all nodding our heads, as we perhaps hoped and believed, and put someone on a pedestal. It is very difficult to adjust ones thoughts and beliefs, there are a lot of strange emotions to cope with,almost like a marriage or relationship gone wrong, the feelings of betrayal, and all sorts of negative feelings. I think you look clearly at what is being said and make your own mind up and look carefully.

I'm glad you wrote "we are mostly all" and not "we are all". I beg to differ. I never put RMJK on a pedestal; I simply thought I could learn from her. I indeed learned much from her, and I'm grateful for that. I see no reason to criticise things that were wrong, or bring up stuff from years and years ago and analyse it. It's not my way. My time as a monk was good AND I've moved on. For me, end of story. I'd have to work at bringing up the rest of this stuff, and I only work that hard when I have to and feel I need to.

I don't mean to criticise anyone on this forum, but I get the feeling that perhaps some people would find it helpful to realise that there is another way of looking at things.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:10 am

personally I did look at things another way and left
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:38 pm

Jcbaran wrote:
Isan --
she was pulling my leg? I think the simplest explanation is the most likely. She believed this and acted on it and treated some apparently sincere people meanly - or had me do it. Her interest in the occult was expressed many times over the years in many ways, so that part is not that surprising.

It is a very odd situation - here - because every story that anyone might tell about Kennett - could also be re-interpreted as some esoteric Zen teaching or mirroring. With the end conclusion that we just misunderstood something more profound. That explanation doesn't work when you stop believing the collective story.

Now, OK - let's imagine Kennett's outburst and demands were all some act, some manipulation. She was trying to teach me something? So it was all some esoteric game, theater? To what end? To increase fear and paranoia?

Were we all just puppets or dolls in her doll house? I guess that was oddly possible, but actually this explanation is probably far worse. Why do any of this? Well, she would be doing this if she felt that she had such supernatural sight that by creating various stressful scenarios for her students, these actions would somehow enlighten them.

But I tend to end up with the simple explanation. Especially as her behavior became more abusive and irrational, it was as it appeared to be. When she was angry, there was anger. When she appeared to be jealous or insecure, that's what was going on.

I believe RMJK was a master at mirroring. As my meditation became more sensitive in the early 80's I started to see how she intentionally wore masks and would change them in response to who was with her, etc. It was amazing theater and I believe her justification was, as you say, the enlightenment of the students. You only have to read the chapter Activity In The Heart Of Fugen in Selling Water By The River (see p47-48) to get that she took this practice seriously. It's a very dangerous game to discard your own authenticity when relating to others, and in a closed community where the rule is no one may question the behavior it's a formula for disaster. RMJK created a situation where she did not receive the normal feedback that occurs amongst people. There were no social cues to help define appropriate behavior and so she was restrained and guided only by her personal ethics. She was not without ethics, but clearly her behavior was sometimes poisoned by her own unresolved issues and that became worse over time. On many occasions I believe I could tell when she was gaming Vs when she was expressing authentic feelings. For instance when Koshin and myself (there were others too) began to challenge her authority in 1983/1984, the anger she displayed was without a doubt real. When she was threatened the gloves came off and there was no longer a pretense of sitting in meditation and mirroring the koan for the good of the student. I could say more but have to get on with my day. To be continued...
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:53 pm

I look forward to reading more from you on that, Isan.

I hope your day went well.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:15 pm

Yes isan interesting I completely agree The most relevant bit for me is no one may question the behavior. Daiji made the point to me, when he left,that when asked what Koho Zenji would say about what was going on she said he would not understand. That to me feels taht one even discards a last remaining senior,or reference point. I think Eko saying the Abbot of Sojiji did not have understanding continues the theme.
An isolated community like Shatsa looses coneection with what other religious orders or the same relious orders feel about them. Under these circumstances I think the habit of discrediting starts there is something wrong with the Buddhist Society ..Daiji.. etc
What is not realised is the true stories do leak out
Interesting what you say
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:22 pm

Isan-- we have different experiences. I did not experience her as expert at mirroring. And what was she mirroring when she told me i was under psychic attack? And she had some enlightened reason for mistreating the guests at the gate? Frankly, this whole way of thinking, this whole approach to zen training is completely uninteresting to me.

Let me say - I have trained with some amazing Tibetan lamas -- and none of them use manipulation or "mirroring" as part of their Dharma teaching. Everything was very straightforward, kind and clear. Yes, there were a few lamas that promoted themselves as masters of crazy wisdom - so they could do anything - get wildly drunk, seduce students, behave abusively - and that didn't work out so well. Not only did this kind of behavior create major problems in their communities, but hard to say anyone was enlightened in the process - can't know for sure -- it was certainly very dramatic / exciting / wild - but beyond this kind of theater, not sure the value.

When you convince your students that everything you do is enlightened action, great teaching, then you can do absolutely anything - random actions, wild actions, abusive activities -- as well as just expressing your shadow side - and everyone will assume it is great teaching of some sort. By the way, many gurus in many traditions promote this version of reality without bringing in the idea of "mirroring."

But the problem with this is that mirroring itself is a manipulation that easily goes awry. Actually, probably always goes awry, because none of these "masters" are as enlightened as they believe or advertise - so their ego/shadow / personal issues are in play. and power and power control enters into it, and then your students just becomes toys of sorts, playthings.

Also this mind-set-up creates a kind of paranoia in the students - what is he/she really doing? What is this secret teaching? What is real? What is authentic? You assume that you are being manipulated all the time. Probably rightly.

I believe in the value of discipline. I believe in the value of wise teachers pointing out the truth to their students -- in many different ways. But I have yet to see the value in manipulation, humiliation.

I would point out the great work of Byron Katie - she uses this intense form of inquiry that people do themselves to see the truth of their reality for themselves. Byron Katie can be tough, very pointed, and it is very effective. But no manipulation or humiliation is needed. Frankly, I think teachers who resort to this kind of behavior are not very skillful in pointing out the truth.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:59 pm

I think it likely that some will misunderstand what I will write here about entanglements people get into. (I've been in a few myself.)

One time while waiting to converse with a senior manager, I spoke with the secretary, who after many years had risen by seniority to her current level. I forget how we got into the subject, but she ended up saying something like, "You know, my husband is right. We women sometimes get out of hand and need to be slapped around a bit."

I didn't see any indications she was getting slapped around at the moment. And I don't remember now how we ended the conversation. But her remark left me with a troubling guess about what her life had been like. I don't really know for sure, but my guess (from her background and where she was raised) is that she'd been slapped around a few times.

The question is, "Was she a victim, or was she a dance partner in a destructive saga of domestic violence?"

Perhaps the first time she was slapped around, she was a pure victim -- maybe even the first few times. But for whatever reason she stayed in the relationship, anyhow, regardless of the outcome, regardless of whatever transpired. And as she stayed, she became a dance partner in whatever troubled drama that continued to play out. Her beliefs were for whatever reason, that continuing the drama was a better choice than the next best alternative. Eventually her beliefs included that the line that the person slapping her around was helping her, doing it for her own good.

Her role in the relationship doesn't excuse or exonerate the violence done to her by her husband -- not even when she justifies it. Nor does it imply that she "asked for it or provoked it." But it seems inescapable to me that it would be a delusion for her to claim that her long sentence of abuse was not at least a good part of her own making -- her own beliefs and the ones she accepted from her husband.

Another example in play today is the mortgage mess, the drama of evil companies taking advantage of helpless, ignorant folk by lies and malicious chicanery. Surely the greed of those who bought a new house, walked away from closing with a few thousand cash in their pockets rather than paying anything down, who assumed that prices would just rise and rise and rise, and that they'd let the house go if it didn't -- surely it is appropriate to fault them for their beliefs too.

There are real victims, and people who take advantage of the weak and vulnerable. But at some point, if the victim is going to change, he/she has to come to the reality that 1) they need to completely rethink their beliefs and behaviors, and 2) they need to and can pay the price to change them.

The beliefs that actually control behavior are usually not the conscious ones that people think they have. They are mostly invisible and rooted deeply and unspeakably in the conditioning of their life - that they latched onto early as a means of learning to survive.

It is this burden of conditioning that Buddhism tackles. And one of the clear messages of the forum is that we humans are not fully conditioned; we can change. Diana, Amalia, Laura, Kaizan, etc. are all examples of people who despite whatever conditioning drew them in, were able to extract themselves from their own previous beliefs and choose again. They are clear messages that I hope every prospective associate of the OBC reads -- to watch out for their own tendency to join the dance -- and to know that it is well within human capacity to choose again more wisely, even if one has joined the dance for a while. To me, the recognition that one's beliefs have failed, and that one can choose again is part of waking up.

I'm not making a single judgment about any who have posted here. I can't possibly know enough from a few postings to reach a conclusion that is justified. I do think people were harmed. I'm less sure about the choreography of the dance, except that it seems clear that it was a destructive one led by some who exploited it to manipulate and control.


Last edited by jack on Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : misc spelling, improvements?.)
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Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:17 pm

Jack,
Don't have time to write much, but your posting is a very wise one. What is especially insightful is how one can start to think one needs a good slapping around--how similar to the master's emotional outbursts being for the good of the student and the student buying into it and others watching it. Josh wrote of some resources that illustrate the commonality of many religious organizations in which the same phenomena we've been discussing here is replicated over and over in a variety of different religioius environments. To study these patterns can be very enlightening, showing the commonality of drives we all have and how similarly these destructive environments are created and maintained. I will pursue those writings further as a way to perhaps understand more fully what I experienced myself and what others on this site write about.
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Isan
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:18 am

Jcbaran wrote:
Isan-- we have different experiences. I did not experience her as expert at mirroring. And what was she mirroring when she told me i was under psychic attack? And she had some enlightened reason for mistreating the guests at the gate? Frankly, this whole way of thinking, this whole approach to zen training is completely uninteresting to me.

But the problem with this is that mirroring itself is a manipulation that easily goes awry. Actually, probably always goes awry, because none of these "masters" are as enlightened as they believe or advertise - so their ego/shadow / personal issues are in play. and power and power control enters into it, and then your students just becomes toys of sorts, playthings.

Also this mind-set-up creates a kind of paranoia in the students - what is he/she really doing? What is this secret teaching? What is real? What is authentic? You assume that you are being manipulated all the time. Probably rightly.

Josh, regarding my first comment I was not suggesting RMJK's mirroring was enlightened action, only that she engaged in it as a way of teaching. I could not venture a guess as to what she was trying to do when she talked about psychic attack or the business with the guests at the gate. I would agree that manipulation goes awry sooner or later. You only have to look at what transpired with Eko to see that playing out. I could never understand why she wouldn't stop the show. She would on occasion be genuine with me - she could be caring and approachable - but those were brief moments in the otherwise hellish drama. I think paranoia gradually became the norm for the whole community. At a certain point I could no longer see the good person behind the masks and my commitment to her just dissolved away. It's like what happens with parents you can't live with. You have to move on, but you still share flesh and bone.
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Jcbaran

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:24 am

In terms of Eko, i am seeing bits and pieces about what happened here in various postings. Is there any one overall account of what went on? Curious, since i did know him when he was a junior monk.
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chisanmichaelhughes

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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:53 am

Josh I seem to remember Eko when he was Mike Little telling me he was a child actor Am I right about that? If I am what was his role? Interesting if I am right
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:59 am

Chisan,
Thanks for the kind thoughts. I hope you also have a good share of happiness and good fortune in your life.
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PostSubject: Re: Occult & supernatural messages / explanations   Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:53 pm

I have a few thoughts on this thread.
First, Diana, I feel for you tremendously and think you must be a very strong person to have been able to tell the story like this.
About letting oneself be manipulated, participating 'in the dance' - well, we are normally partially complicit, in some way. But, for Goodness' sake: we are where we are at, at every moment. It is not possible to not have some conditioning. We will always be prone to falling in error at times;and, perhaps to be pushed around by our past, because it is not possible to shed all accumulated conclusions, conscious and otherwise - not ALL of them. We can only cut through the crux of it: see that we are whole, complete, free, always have been, and can't be otherwise, even if we have arthritis, or some emotional scars and some mental catarracts. We need to see that they don't diminish us. To be free of beliefs is utter nonsence. Sometimes one has direct knowledge. The rest is beliefs. Some are sound working beliefs. And some prove to be wrong, and so we can drop them, unless we have insecurity, etc, invested in them. As my teacher says, the only thing we can know totally is reality (who we are, that stuff, you know). The rest, science, psychology, everthing else, we can know only a little, and must needs misunderstand frequently.
As to teaching by 'mirroring' and similar fancy stuff. Perhaps very infrequently, and briefly, it can be used - perhaps. But on the whole, it only confuses the student.
I have my doubts as to how much genuine stuff JR had to teach.
I like Henry's comment: The mindset of obedience and not questioning is the key
issue. This was started by Rev. Kennett and she deliberately passed the torch
to the very person who she knew would continue to implement a way that
perpetuated a culture of not questioning.
Obedience, on the whole, is not a good thing in an adult person. I, for one, have been heavily brainwashed in that direction by reading books on Zen before I went to Shasta. That, coupled with my need for approval from Big Mamma, had me doomed for a while. Eventually I saw through some of it, and banged the door behind me, making sure I was on the outside! I remember once walking on the grounds of Shasta, thinking, 'well, yes, I love myself, but then, doesn't everybody?' I was, in my young years, accused of 'loving myself' (probably meaning 'too much' but that was not clearly stated), and that time in Shasta I somehow decided, 'to hell with all these judgements'. Now I don't think it is in fact possible to love oneself too much. One can only be confused as to how. Then, Josh's comments, always a mine of gems: When you convince your students that everything you do is
enlightened action, great teaching, then you can do absolutely anything -
random actions, wild actions, abusive activities -- as well as just expressing
your shadow side - and everyone will assume it is great teaching of some sort.
By the way, many gurus in many traditions promote this version of reality
without bringing in the idea of "mirroring.


But the problem with this is that mirroring itself is a manipulation that
easily goes awry. Actually, probably always goes awry, because none of these
"masters" are as enlightened as they believe or advertise - so their
ego/shadow / personal issues are in play. and power and power control enters
into it, and then your students just becomes toys of sorts, playthings.
It seems that most of the ' teaching' was ironing out some psychological stuff. That perhaps is at times necessary but certainly not in a monastery, under the guise of 'spiritual' quest. JR was not qualified to deal with someone else's psychological disorders, if anyone in fact is. In such environment as 'the submarine' of enclosed system of Shasta would make this deadly. No wonder people got hurt...But I wouldn't agree with Josh, that one was always free to get out. Everyone in this world has some baggage, what my Russian friend calls, a bzik. This can keep one shackled as much as any chains. We all know that. The thing is that we all have our bziks in different places, combinations and proportions. The recipes differ. For some, it is terribly hard to get on a plane. So if Diana could not see she could leave, or did not have the strength to at one time, my compassion goes out to her, lots and lots of it. And, as I already said, I have great respect for her courage to reveal all this very personal stuff.
And Michael, I am with you. I am so mad! Girls, speak up.
Enough. Ol'ga
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