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 The U.S. Presidential election

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Lise
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PostSubject: The U.S. Presidential election   Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:24 pm

This could be a risky topic, but nonetheless fun to exchange views upon; does anyone care to discuss how they feel, do some venting? While keeping in mind our rules on language and civility, please, if we can. 

I'll start. I'm stunned by how far Trump has gotten and I'm worried he might win. Polls have been wrong and I think there is some mainstream media bias in play, although it's understandable as to why - Trump gives them so much material to work with. 

I wanted Sanders for the Democrat choice, but since we can't get that I'm voting for Clinton. The alternative is too grim to consider.

I'm almost dreading the arrival of election night but I really want this to be over. hmm   

L.
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:45 pm

I don't find anything to like about Trump, but as a foreigner I find the idea of him as president less scary than Clinton. Reason is that Clinton has stated that if elected she will "topple Assad" and then go to war with Iran. This will bring her into conflict with the Russians, who have lately been in conference with the Chinese, who will now likely come in on the side of the Russians. The world is entering an extremely dangerous phase, think back to the Cuba crisis, if you are old enough to remember it.

John McAfee thinks it was the Iranians who hacked the Democratic Party servers, because they want to destabilise Clinton. They think Trump would be a "chaos candidate" and less likely to go to war. I agree with that, there's nothing much positive about Trump, but if he was elected the whole political establishment would unite against him, including a large part of his own party, and they would be tied up in blocking his madcap schemes and thus less likely to progress the "Pentagon Playbook" of Full Spectrum Dominance.

Politics anyway seems to have become a kind of "shell game" in which what matters is how you project yourself and not what you are. Obama seems like an inspiring character, urbane, a fine orator, he makes inspiring speeches about how he wants to see a world without nuclear weapons but then signs off on the biggest nuclear upgrade the US has ever seen, he makes speeches about how he is committed to peace in the middle east, but then signs off on 38 billion dollars of advanced military aid to Israel. Clinton is surrounded by media experts, admen, spin doctors, focus groups, she will never make a sexist, racist or homophobic remark because she is too accomplished at this shell game, but is that a reason to elect her?

Truly, if I was in the US I would probably not vote at all, I couldn't bring myself to vote for a candidate whose avowed aim is to destablise foreign governments with all the collateral damage that entails (and as a European I am dismayed at the number of refugees now arriving on our shores, all because of these stupid interventionist policies put in place since 9/11).
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:48 pm

Well said, tufsoft!

And Lise, wonderful to see you posting again!

I'm basically with you both on this. I think that Trump offers precisely what Adolf Hitler offered prior to his election. I'm not sure that Hillary the Hawk offers much better.

At least, here in California, Hillary leads Trump by a good 20%.

So, easy for me to vote for Jill Stein, without having to worry that my vote might benefit Trump.
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:13 am

Tufsoft said:
"I don't find anything to like about Trump, but as a foreigner I find the idea of him as president less scary than Clinton. Reason is that Clinton has stated that if elected she will "topple Assad" and then go to war with Iran."

Can you please post links to credible sources documenting this?

"John McAfee thinks it was the Iranians who hacked the Democratic Party servers, because they want to destabilize Clinton."


I don't think of John McAfee as a very credible source.  Is there any corroboration?


"Clinton is surrounded by media experts, admen, spin doctors, focus groups, she will never make a sexist, racist or homophobic remark because she is too accomplished at this shell game, but is that a reason to elect her?"


I believe a reason to elect her is she is educated and has been in public service for 30+ years.  Donald Trump, on the other hand, does not demonstrate comparable knowledge of national and international issues, nor has he done public service; he instead prides himself on making money and not paying taxes.  The notion that he can be kept in check by the congress and the courts is dangerous, wishful thinking; there is a great deal that a president can do without consent/support of congress.

The world is enormously complex and no president is going to please everyone, or appear consistent, as they struggle with national and international challenges.  It's enough for me to vote for the person I believe is capable of understanding and responding rationally to the world.
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:15 pm

What Isan said about why he supports Clinton. I feel she is capable, very seasoned and her talents will benefit the country.

hi Steve! Yes, I can't help but think of the similarities to Hitler. Makes me sad that our country in 2016 has so many disaffected, angry and hopeless people who think Trump can give them what they want, as the Germans thought Hitler would. Trump can't deliver, and they won't believe it until he gets in office and none of his bizarre promises come about. He won't have any interest in the country's well-being; he's on an ego cruise. Aside from being unfit, unprepared and shockingly uneducated in world affairs, his attitude and behavior with women should have been the final nail in the coffin. Why it isn't, I cannot understand. I don't know how women support him, especially.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/10/donald-trump-scandals/474726/
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:42 pm

You're both probably right, and thanks for the comments. Lately America seems to be involving itself in military actions in every corner of the world, destablising regimes in the Middle East, pushing the Russians on their borders and enrolling former client states of the USSR into NATO, buzzing Russian fighter planes in the Baltic region and sailing warships in the South China Sea. One reason they have gone after the Middle Eastern regimes is, as Wesley Clarke says, that at a certain point they decided that whatever they did the Russians wouldn't oppose them. Since then the Chinese have become a nuclear power, and it seems to me that the Russians and the Chinese between them are trying to rebalance the blocs.

But you're probably right that Trump is more dangerous than Clinton. The real shame of the election is that Sanders got dropped, because you don't often get a candidate like that in the US or indeed anywhere.
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:42 pm

Tufsoft, excellent points, in my opinion!

One of my observations, as an American, is that we seem to deplore the shortcomings of whoever our identified adversary might be--and to dismiss and deny the shortcomings of whoever we choose to identify with.

I am forever grateful to Jiyu for unintentionally making me aware of this dynamic!
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:01 pm

And Lise, so well said about Trump. It absolutely boggles the mind!

And yet, in some ways I think, it is understandable that when economically marginalized people--marginalized by a social-political-economic process designed for the express purpose of maximizing the power, status, and wealth of the few through the subjugation and exploitation of everyone and everything else--reach a state of distress that blows out the ability to respond rationally, they then can easily fall back on (what I think is) our collectively inherited dynamic of Empire--and choose a tyrant who they have been coerced into believing will be "their" bully.

It seems to me that this is what we are seeing in the US--and worldwide--today.


Last edited by Kozan on Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:23 pm

Steve, this is it exactly. People who aren't earners of a living wage, and who feel they have no influence or any kind of voice, are so susceptible to the message Trump is peddling. 

We have got to have a place in our society so that each person has a reasonable standard of living and can take care of their families. None of us are born equal to others in terms of what we start with -- family support, health, mental and emotional faculties, educational opportunities, etc.; some have the hardest odds stacked against them from the first. A far-sighted public policy scheme takes this into account and doesn't set us against each other in fear. That's what I want to hear from the candidates -
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:29 am

tufsoft wrote:

But you're probably right that Trump is more dangerous than Clinton. The real shame of the election is that Sanders got dropped, because you don't often get a candidate like that in the US or indeed anywhere.

I agree that Bernie Sanders is unique; he's a real progressive inside the system.  Although he didn't get the nomination he did significantly impact the party platform and move Hillary Clinton to the left.  Here is Bernie talking about why it's important to vote for Hillary, and outlining a progressive strategy going forward:

Bernie Sanders On Why His Supporters Should Vote For Clinton


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTvYl2Tl_ew
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:32 pm

Isan wrote:
Quote :


Here is Bernie talking about why it's important to vote for Hillary, and outlining a progressive strategy going forward:



Couldn't be more clear, and from the man himself. We owe him at the very least the ability to continue his work under a Democratic president.
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:31 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-win-make-world-safer-british-army-lord-richards-a7396716.html
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PostSubject: Re: The U.S. Presidential election   Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:43 pm

tufsoft wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-win-make-world-safer-british-army-lord-richards-a7396716.html

This all sounds plausible if you believe this...

"The billionaire Republican, who has been attacked for praising Russian president Vladimir Putin during the campaign, would “reinvigorate” relations between Washington and Moscow, according to Lord Richards."


The assumption is that Trump and Putin are going to get along and that this will result in a deescalation of tensions in Syria, etc, but we know virtually nothing about Trump's relationship with Putin and Russia because (among other things) he refuses to release his tax returns.  Trump has also demonstrated a remarkable lack of understanding of geopolitics.  I believe he is no match for Putin, who will manipulate him to the detriment of NATO and Europe generally.  Consider this recent article from Newsweek:

Why Vladimir Putin is Backing Donald Trump

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-russia-hillary-clinton-united-states-europe-516895

Here are excerpts from the Newsweek article referring to the way Russian hacking has interfered with the US election...

"Less than two weeks later—despite his intelligence briefings about the Russian hacking and disinformation campaign, despite the public statements by top American intelligence officials confirming its existence and despite the White House proclamation that it was preparing to respond to the unprecedented interference by Moscow—Trump once again dismissed all of the evidence and came to Russia’s defense. Intelligence and other government officials in Britain were horrified, according to one person with direct knowledge of the reaction there. "


"The words that so shocked the British were “our country has no idea,” and “I doubt it.” All of the NATO allies are sure Russia is behind the hacking. All of America’s intelligence agencies are, too. The foreign intelligence services had been sharing what they knew about this with the Americans, and Trump had been told about it. But he blithely dismissed the conclusion of not only the United States but its allies as well, based on absolutely nothing. Trump had no apparent means of developing his own information to contradict the findings of intelligence agencies around the world. And that he would so aggressively fight to clear Putin and cast aspersions on all Western intelligence agencies, left the British officials slack-jawed."

Can the West afford to have a US president who disregards his own intelligence services?
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